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Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by superkuh on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:24PM (#24424080)
Unless there's some physical reason you can't run physical conductor there's every reason not to do this.

This setup proposes to use 100mw/cm^2. That's just not acceptable unless you're sure no humans or animals are going to cross the beam (or even it's sidebands!). Even a horn has diffraction sidebands, and unless they're all at least 8dB down in all situations that's bad. The laser trips won't cover this.

This exceeds the safety standards established by the US Navy back when they were dealing with their high powered radars for the first time. They found that anything over 10mW/cm^2 can cause enough heating in animal eyes to cause clouding of the eye. Humans' deep set eyes and brow ridges help (depending on freq) but 10mW/cm^2 can still cause health issues. The measured e-field for that powerlevel, depending on wavelength, will almost certainly be above the electrical field limit for exposure in the USA. I hope that's also true in NZ.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by temp0826 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:21PM (#24425487)
We've obviously learned nothing from Sim City 2000's microwave power plants.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by tyingq on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:27PM (#24424102)
Fairly scary working around high power radar. Microwaves heat up the "high water content" parts of your body. Eyes, as you mention and also...testicles.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by DoofusOfDeath on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:37PM (#24424977)
Please forgive the humor, but this immediately made a Jerry Lee Lewis song play in my head.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by interestica on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:56PM (#24425809)
Surely, since we are talking about excited water molecules, you mean "Whole lotta shakin' goin' on"...
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by will_pseudonym on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:48PM (#24426803)
I'm sure that OP meant "Great Balls of Fire"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IjgZGhHrYY

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Gene_Parmesan on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:03PM (#24426950)
Yes, the person you are responding to was making a joke by playing off the fact that we all would have immediately thought of Great Balls of Fire, and then they subverted that expectation. Ergo, humor.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by will_pseudonym on Friday September 11, 2020 @11:55PM (#24449701)
Leave it to Gene Parmesan to school me. Can't believe I missed that. :)
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by hugi on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:10PM (#24425367)
An electrician working at a Radar station here in Iceland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofn_Air_Station) was stuck there overnight during a snow storm. For some reason he decided to stay in the radar room, probably since it "felt warmer". He was found properly cooked the next day. Not really an interesting story, but since I was probably 6 years old when I heard it it's stuck with me ever since and caused an everlasting fear of high powered radar.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by biofunsf on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:30PM (#24425579)
This actually sounds a lot like an urban legend. Especially given that it’s a story you heard in your youth.

I wasn’t able to find a report of that happening at the Hofn station, but the same story of this happening to an anonymous microwave technician does appear in other locales.

Snopes did a debunking on these and they say it’s false: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nuke-of-earl/

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:35PM (#24426196)
Yep... considering the skin effect, any microwave radiation would start heating the outside skin layer first, and it would hurt long before anything inside you was "cooked".

If you got locked in there.. then sure... maybe.... but staying in there and not feeling it (or just feeling "warmer", until you die...) nope.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by tyingq on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:04PM (#24425883)
Here's a credible source for some "far short of death", but real incidents: https://academic.oup.com/occmed/article-pdf/50/1/49/4284302/...

Note: They are ~900Mhz, so short of "microwave", but pretty close.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by hugi on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:39PM (#24425672)
Yeah, most probably an urban legend. But sure stuck in my young mind :).
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by nickt on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:50PM (#24426345)
Ha, stories similar to that were going around in the 90's in the RAF. Particularly if you found yourself out in the cold at an RRH up north somewhere...
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by antpls on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:27PM (#24424846)
Could it be used on Mars or in space? There are many less living things there
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by elihu on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:37PM (#24425650)
That's my thought. One of the technical challenges of space elevators is how to deliver power to the climber. Some of the other options are to use lasers and solar panels, or to use the cable itself as a conductor.

(Technically, an Earth-based space elevator would still most likely be beaming from inside Earth atmosphere, but at least it would be pointed approximately straight up and probably be positioned in the ocean or other sparsely-populated area.)

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by datameta on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:07PM (#24425340)
Your latter concern is covered in the article: "But if it works as intended, the beam won’t ever contact anything but empty air. The system uses a net of lasers surrounding the beam to detect obstructions, like a bird or person, and it automatically shuts off transmission until the obstruction has moved on."
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by biofunsf on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:20PM (#24425477)
OP explicitly said:

“Even a horn has diffraction sidebands, and unless they're all at least 8dB down in all situations that's bad. The laser trips won't cover this.”

I don’t really understand this. My guess is that they’re saying that besides the targeted microwave band, other high/low frequencies will be emitted (sidebands) and that these will diffract and be way outside of the directional beam that’s protected by the laser trip wire.

I would assume the inventors have at least some explanation for this, but a fluffy article won’t go into those details.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by elihu on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:30PM (#24425589)
Maybe OP meant side-lobes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_lobe

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Emrod on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:24PM (#24427150)
As you rightly noted, an article wont go into those details :). you are rising a valid point which we have addressed. Happy to explain if you PM me
[dead]
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by phs318u on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:24PM (#24426072)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna

5 seconds of searching would have saved you from looking like a dick.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by noir_lord on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:43PM (#24426281)
Doesn't seem like all of his life up to this point worked, would 5 seconds make all the difference?
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by NateEag on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:18PM (#24425442)
OP explicitly said, "The laser trips won't cover this."

That may or may not be true, but you're bringing up a point they already addressed.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by mNovak on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:21PM (#24426582)
Ignoring all the other reasons this is unlikely to work, 8dB sidelobe level is very easily achieved though. I'm assuming they're using some sort of phased array, where SLL can be designed to <-20dB or more.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Emrod on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:55PM (#24426865)
No sideloabs. we are using near-field
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Robotbeat on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:57PM (#24425232)
100mW/cm^2 is the same intensity as sunlight. It's not a ridiculous amount.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by hengheng on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:01PM (#24425276)
Skin is quite good at not letting sunlight through, but it's not as good at shielding RF.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Robotbeat on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:21PM (#24427111)
Skin is translucent (at least for certain ethnic backgrounds). The heat gets in.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by the_pwner224 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:37PM (#24425649)
Have you ever gone out on a hot day and stood in the sun? There's a big difference between sun and shade. A head with black hair gets super hot, aside from the general heat you feel.

Another way to say it is 1 kilowatt per square meter. It's a lot of energy. A 1500 watt electric heater can get my entire bedroom quite a bit hotter than with just the central heat running. Put 2/3rds of that energy into your body and there are certainly going to be effects.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Robotbeat on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:18PM (#24427085)
Yeah, but I think it's a reasonably safe level for power transmission through corridors where there's not supposed to be any people.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by mikedilger on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:51PM (#24426349)
Sunlight is spread-spectrum. This is focused at the frequency that makes water molecules vibrate - which is why we use it for ovens.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Johnythree on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:15AM (#24430378)
Microwave ovens are not "focused at the frequency that makes water molecules vibrate".

This is an urban myth.

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Wave%20properties/Wa...

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by anilakar on Thursday September 10, 2020 @04:44AM (#24430205)
Microwave ovens operate at 2.45 GHz because of frequency management issues - we just can't afford to have jammers all around the spectrum. The first water absorption peak is actually at 22ish GHz.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Robotbeat on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:20PM (#24427106)
Any heat which is absorbed causes water molecules to vibrate. Including sunlight. There's nothing particularly special about being broad vs narrow spectrum in this case.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by mrfusion on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:38PM (#24424996)
I wish HN commenters would try to think of solutions instead of automatically listing the problems.

This place is pretty depressing sometimes.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by anomaloustho on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:45PM (#24426299)
Actually, from my perspective I thought this was a really interesting idea, then wondered why we don’t use it everywhere all the time and figured there must be some cons that have prevented us from doing this before.

Some of the “negative” HN comments gave me exactly the information I was interested in that the article hadn’t mentioned.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by NortySpock on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:54PM (#24425207)
"X is a safety risk (perhaps it could be designed differently)" is a helpful safety warning to others, not just "let me list my opinion of problems".

Do you harsh on people who remind you how dangerous it is to work on live electrical outlets or wear long sleeves in a chemistry lab?

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by bawolff on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:00PM (#24425261)
Personally i find people who treat everything as positive and refuse to acknowledge fundamental problems just as annoying who view things as utterly negative and only point out problems without trying to find solutions.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by defterGoose on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:53PM (#24426372)
So you're saying that relying on experience and the laws of physics are a bad thing?
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by rvnx on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:42PM (#24425045)
Inspectors of finished works
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by superkuh on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:59PM (#24425260)
Well, okay guys, I'll give you a "solution" since this is proposing to use RF anyway. Instead of doing it entirely wirelessly use a very thin conductor surface wave transmission line (SWTL). That way only one conductor is needed and the RF energy is mostly contained within a wavelength or so of the SWTL (think "inside-out waveguide). The conductor can be very thin, like 28 awg. Or, for spanning larger distance, SWTL mode has been demonstrated on twisted aluminum cord used in normal power lines. It's just a matter of adapting the coaxial to SWTL launcher (sort of cone).
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Johnythree on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:17AM (#24430395)
Except "Surface Wave Transmission Lines" leak.

A lot.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by pueblito on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:06PM (#24426471)
What's the point of wireless power if you use a wire?
[dead]
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:25PM (#24426608)
The modern western world loves Safety(TM). This isn't a bad thing. Obviously we don't want people getting killed in industrial accidents all the time. However, as a side effect any platform (HN, Reddit, Twitter, whatever) which quantifies people's opinions is going to tend toward shallow pearl clutching when it comes to topics like this. People realize that when they make some shallow (shallow has the nice side effect of giving you a wide potential audience) comments about GoodThings(TM) like Safety(TM) their virtue score goes up.

So every time some topic comes up, no matter how mundane or niche it is, there will inevitably be tons of people tripping over each other to score cheap virtue points by going after obvious trad-offs. "What about safety", "what about the poors", people ask questions like that even though they already know and don't care about the answer because their lizard brain knows that when they do that the number in the top right corner gets bigger.

That's just how modern gamified social media is.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by rexpop on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:02PM (#24425295)
You've got the wrong attitude. It's crucial to thoroughly explore a problem space before launching into half-baked "solutions" that risk compounding complexity.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:12PM (#24426521)
Everyone loves to try and score some cheap virtue points harping about safety but I don't see how a beam between two poles is worse than a live wire between two poles. Whether it's a metal line or not doesn't matter. You touch that space it's not gonna end well. The danger is constant compared to other electrical transmission and there are other benefits. Seems like a net positive so why not try it for niche use cases where its advantages make sense.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by XCSme on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:20PM (#24426574)
The line, you can see it...
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#24426652)
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how live wire accidents happen and are prevented.

Live wire accidents happen because people operating equipment capable of hitting the wires are looking elsewhere because looking elsewhere is a fundamental part of doing their job. The crane operator looking at the load or the helicopter pilot watching something on the ground is who hits a live wires. Not hitting live wires is caused by knowing where they are ahead of time and planning your work so you don't hit them. Making the wire invisible doesn't really change that. It's not like this tech would be used for residential lines where every Joe schmoe is operating a man-lift.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by cwhiz on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:49PM (#24425135)
So sad. If only their team of physicists, engineers, and scientists had done basic internet research. Too bad. I guess they’ll plow ahead and try it out, anyway. Maybe humanity will just accidentally be a better place, despite the extraordinary negativity.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Angostura on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:52PM (#24425172)
Do you have a better response than this snark? Perhaps by pointing out where the poster is actually in error?
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by EdwardDiego on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:12PM (#24425381)
His error is assuming that the people working on this aren't aware of the potential issues and working to resolve them. I mean, if they can't, they won't be able to deploy this system.

NZ has a strong system of regulations and licensing around transmitting.

Maximum exposure to non-ionising radiation is set out in NZS 2772.1, which is based on the guidelines from the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection.

All transmitters require approval from Radio Spectrum Management, and any system like this being deployed would require a resource consent from a territorial authority under the Resource Management Act, at which point the Department of Conservation would submit on any adverse effects on local wildlife.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by cwhiz on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:24PM (#24425521)
Really? Do you think the NZ government is incompetent, Emrod is a scam, and/or PowerCo have not considered these extremely basic issues? The error by OP is assuming everyone involved in this project are morons who have yet to consider even a cursory search of the feasibility of their proposals.

This is such a typical internet armchair thing to do. Point out some Google-able “flaw” and wonder aloud whether the team of scientists and engineers have considered it.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by superkuh on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:42PM (#24426271)
You're making a few of your own assumptions here. I'm op in this thread and yes, I do think this is going to fail because of the physics of it. The free space path loss is always going to lose most of the power (ie, 40-50 dB off the top, and it's the top that matters) for any reasonable dish sizes, freq choice, and distance over 1km.
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by medlyyy on Thursday September 10, 2020 @02:17AM (#24429428)
Why do you think that, though? If the beam is shaped so that it's almost all captured, and there are negligible atmospheric losses due to the frequency range chosen, why should there be high path losses?
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Johnythree on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:22AM (#24430427)
The laws of physics say that it's impossible to generate such a tightly focused beam with manageable antenna sizes.

(with or without Near Field considerations)

Why do you think that Radio Astronomy dishes are so humongous?

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Emrod on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:40PM (#24436829)
No magic at play here. The equations are open for all to explore. We are not breaking the laws of physics. Just flexing them with clever engineering.. just like innovators that came before us. For example, the radiating near field of a 2.4GHz antenna about 8 meters long would extend about 1km.

Surely you do not expect Emrod to discuss in detail the subject matter of its patent applications?

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by cwhiz on Thursday September 10, 2020 @07:14PM (#24437577)
The physicists, scientists, engineers, governments, corporations, and investors all seem to disagree.

But some guy on the internet says it won’t work.

Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Mandatum on Friday September 11, 2020 @01:12AM (#24439383)
Someone elsewhere in this thread pointed out who the founder (Zvi Kushnir or Greg Kushnir) is, and some of his past.. "endeavours". He's started a new company every year for the past 5 years; including crypto and "psychic consulting" which he is no longer the director of. Luckily New Zealand Companies is open and searchable.

I believe this was an ad buy bought by marketing at PowerCo rather than some "R&D" department (hint: they don't have those at NZ power companies). It likely didn't get more than a layman's eye.

Have a meeting with a few stakeholders there next week, will ask about it. Also reaching out to Callaghan Institute who funded this.

[dead]
Re:New Zealand is about to test long-range wireless power tr... by Avtomatk on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:01PM (#24426927)
HN people only correct the "false facts" that people (with their professional career of 2 or 3 internet searches perhaps) assume when commenting on a site full of professionals in the field that is covered in each publication... If you feel like debating, having basically "zero experience" in the subject matter, make a post on facebook or twitter and receive attention from people who are at the same level of ignorance as you, and return when you have a professional career and important information to share.