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Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:03PM (#24423866)
Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Apple does not allow negotiation. It's take it-or-leave it.

Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend.

Additionally, while MS and Sony require all developers to use their stores or APIs for IAP, they allow developers (at least large ones) to heavily customize those storefronts, and charge significantly less than 30% for the enforced privilege of using their IAP APIs; the exact rates being a matter of negotiation.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by ctroein89 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:06PM (#24424585)
> Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play

Sony explicitly didn't allow for cross-play until 2 years ago [https://kotaku.com/sony-is-finally-allowing-cross-play-on-th...], even though it was technically possible before then [https://www.engadget.com/2017-06-24-rocket-league-cross-netw...]. In fact, the only reason Sony opened up to cross-play is due to pressure to stay competitive with rival platform Xbox. This was a take-it-or-leave it situation, but Sony was too big to leave. Nothing changed until Sony caved to social pressure.

If the argument is that Apple is a unique kind of device that Apple has a monopoly over, it would hard to argue that Sony and Microsoft don't enjoy the same monopoly powers. On the other hand, if argument is that it's easy enough to switch from Playstation to Xbox, then how is that different from buying a new phone?

In fact, I would bet that Epic sued Apple not because it's more monopolistic, but because they want to set a legal precedent that they can then apply to Playstation, Xbox and Switch, without threatening Epic's core business on consoles.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by xnyan on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:22PM (#24426058)
> On the other hand, if argument is that it's easy enough to switch from Playstation to Xbox, then how is that different from buying a new phone?

Would you be willing to agree that the relative importance of a smartphone in 2020 is far greater than the relative importance of a video game console in virtually everyone’s lives?

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by ralfd on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:13AM (#24430363)
As we are talking about a first person shooter game and not some “relative important” app, no I would not.
Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by pjmlp on Thursday September 10, 2020 @08:30AM (#24431648)
Any kind of smartphone, yes, the iPhone in particular, definitely not.

Nor does Fortnite.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by Majromax on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:44PM (#24425715)
> On the other hand, if argument is that it's easy enough to switch from Playstation to Xbox, then how is that different from buying a new phone?

Rather easily: players can own two consoles with nothing more than the hardware investment, and there's a long social experience of dedicated gamers doing just this. Owning two phones, however, requires two separate cell/data plans and duplication of every other regular-use app (productivity, e-mail, etc.)

The core distinction is that a console is a device, whereas iOS/Android is a platform.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by eigen on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:23PM (#24426064)
> Rather easily: players can own two consoles with nothing more than the hardware investment, and there's a long social experience of dedicated gamers doing just this. Owning two phones, however, requires two separate cell/data plans and duplication of every other regular-use app (productivity, e-mail, etc.)

multiple console platforms require multiple accounts with separate friends lists, paid online access, save games, etc. with WiFi calling, separate cell/data plans are not necessary. [1]

> The core distinction is that a console is a device, whereas iOS/Android is a platform.

a console gaming platform certainly seems like a platform. games, friends list with chat, applications such as video streaming, etc.

[1] https://thedroidguy.com/trick-drop-cell-phone-plan-completel...

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by manicdee on Thursday September 10, 2020 @12:39AM (#24428944)
> Owning two phones, however, requires two separate cell/data plans and duplication of every other regular-use app (productivity, e-mail, etc.)

I can't run my Switch copy of Warframe on my PS4. I have to install Warframe for PS4 on the PS4, and then I'll be playing only with other Warframe-on-PS4 players.

Similarly for every paid title I have on the PS4 if I move to Switch I have to buy those titles again, assuming they're available on the Switch. Many of the titles I have on Switch require a Nintendo Online account which is a paid service.

So I'm not sure what you think you're addressing with that comparison, other than desperately trying to find evidence to support your assertion that iPhone is somehow different to a gaming console in terms of being a platform or device.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by np- on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:51PM (#24424377)
Negotiating power seems slightly tangential to the main issue, I don't think that take-it-or-leave-it negotiating tactics are inherently bad. When you buy food from the supermarket, you either pay the price they are charging or you leave - there's no negotiation.

But in that scenario, you can always walk out and walk into a competing grocery store and try to find a better price. The fact that you can walk is what makes it a competitive scenario, and not an anti-trust one. The question here is, is being able to walk away and use an Android (or other smartphone) product an equivalent (thus fair competition) - or is software in the iOS ecosystem unique enough that not being allowed to participate unless you follow arcane rules is unfair abuse of a monopoly.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by awinder on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:24PM (#24424076)
“ Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend”

I don’t understand how this is materially different from apples investments into Xcode, discoverability & promotion in the App Store/“marketing spend”, etc. Apple does tons of stuff with the big players behind closed doors, they highlight it every keynote and that’s just the ones they talk about on the “real human being” front.

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by mjevans on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:34PM (#24424178)
A monopoly in a legal sense is different from one someone with deep pockets willing to litigate over. The little people are not equal in the US legal system.
Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by enos_feedler on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:22PM (#24424062)
That's too bad. I would rather MS and Sony charge treat all developers equally to allow fair competition on the platform. This kind of preferential treatment creates a bigger divide between existing winners and those wanting to become winners.
Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by criddell on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:23PM (#24424072)
That large companies can get use their clout to get a better deal from console stores isn't a particularly compelling defense.

> Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play

Don't some games allow iOS / PC cross-platform play? Epic's Fortnite did, didn't it?

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by judge2020 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:13PM (#24424669)
Yes, iOS has no crossplay restrictions.
Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by fxtentacle on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:49PM (#24425140)
MS doesn't require Xbox developers to use their IAP API. Most do, but that's just because it's so convenient for the players.
Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by dmitriid on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:32PM (#24426164)
quote: Microsoft’s App Developer Agreement states that “[n]ew App and in-App Product submissions to the Store are required to use Microsoft’s commerce engine to support purchase of any In-App Product(s) that are or can be consumed or used within [the] app.”

Appendix A1 (page 16) here https://www.analysisgroup.com/globalassets/insights/publishi...

Re:Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on Se... by mthoms on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:50PM (#24425757)
As a non-console owner, this news is certainly new to me.

It seems to run counter to everything I've heard when people compare the iOS ecosystem to consoles. Where can I learn more?