Exactly this.

I pretty happily try out subscription apps on iOS (which I rarely to never do online). Why? It's darn easy to cancel. I get a reminder in advance even. This contrasts in my experience with nearly EVERY other auto-billing approach out there. The time I sometimes spend calling people to cancel stuff (that I could sign up for online) is ridiculous.

Another nice touch that builds trust. I once deleted an app and iOS reminded me to cancel the subscription if I wasn't going to reinstall! I mean, every other store will keep the auto-bill going forever.

Apple once let somebody hack my account and purchase the same $20 app 15 times. When I complained, they ignored me. When I charged back the purchases, they canceled my Apple account. Purchasing the same app more than once on the same device shouldn't even be possible. This was back in 2011, but... definitely didn't build trust.

But you guys aren't arguing the actual point anyway. The question is whether the forced app store is always a plus for developers, not users. The answer is certainly no. And the answer is also no for users who can manage their own trust, and could happily live with direct downloads outside of the app store. They pay higher prices, and are forced to effectively subsidize everyone else.

Apple has made a decision not to target folks who want direct downloads. They are targeting a different (and very large and lucrative group). They've also managed to block direct download of built in / unremovable apps by carriers and to some degree pioneered the direct to consumer model of cell phone sales, all consumer benefits.

One result - they have a pretty high level of trust among users. And so they can charge a pretty remarkable premium. This level of control has also made them popular for developers. Their ecosystem has a much more consistent development experience, many more users are on a relatively recent iOS and the per user spending is far higher to name just a few elements.

Many of these things are benefits for DEVELOPERS. Sony and Microsoft make the PS and XBOX, also closed systems with networks they hope benefit developers.

And finally, does apple have an obligation to help developers make money or is their focus more properly on consumers?

> When I complained, they ignored me. When I charged back the purchases, they canceled my Apple account.

Do you have a record of that (your emails and their cancellation notice)? Would be very interesting to see how that went down.

> Purchasing the same app more than once on the same device shouldn't even be possible.

It’s not and I don’t think it has ever been.

I’m sorry for your loss.

But Apple believes the opposite of you, has direct contact with nearly a billion customers, and spends massively on safety/security which they wouldn’t do if it wasn’t important to customers.

I have nothing wrong with that. But again, besides the point that this path is always, necessarily beneficial to all users and all developers. It isn't.

It doesn’t have to be. It only has to be beneficial for the vast majority of Apple customers, and it is, which makes it beneficial for the vast majority of Apple developers.

That's not the point being made.

Because if the app was permitted to be installed outside of the app store, it would make more money, meaning the app store offers negative utility to some developers. Fortnite is a huge brand outside of iOS. It iOS did not make the success of Fortnite. Epic doesn't need the app store's advertising to succeed, and being forced to go through this bottleneck only hampers them.

It’s not about advertising. It’s about trust building.

Apple has earned trust with me as a user. When I download an app from Apple’s stores it extends its trust to those apps.

I feel more comfortable spending money on iOS because of that trust. Take away the trust, and I promise there is significantly less money to be made.

If that were true, Epic would not want to offer its app outside of the app store. But it does, because it's more profitable.

No data for this exists.

This is all my opinion and most importantly feelings about spending money though the AppStore and through any other channel.

I will say, for me no other company has built the good will that Apple has. I really doubt that Epic understands the “trust” I speak about. Both because of the general sentiment I see online and as a Fortnite player.

Just thinking about this some more...

Have any of you actually played Fortnite?

Do any of you know how many bugs exist in that game? I’m not even talking about “wall hacks”, rendering issues, difficult collision detection stuff or the many in game broken mechanics. I’m talking about the many, many out-of-game user interface bugs. Logging in fails 1/4 the time (need to reboot the app). Matchmaking fails 1/10 the time (just stuck in an infinite loop). Matchmaking for groups fails 1/10 the time (at least one person in the party will not be in the same game!!! How does a software company fuck up atomic transactions for the full party?)

lol Epic is not a company I want handling financial transactions. I’m very happy to buy Vbucks from Apple/Google/Sony and then “safely” use Vbucks in the Fortnite store.

The data for this does exist, it is the fact that Epic does want to offer its game outside the app store, as evidenced by their statements and also by having attempted it for Android.

This answer feels disingenuous. I feel I’ve made my point fairly clearly.

The type of trust building Apple does is a “value add” that a company like Epic doesn’t understand yet.

Epic choosing to make this decision isn’t data about Apple’s ability and mindset to earn trust. Epic choosing to make this decision seems to be a short term play at rent seeking before Fortnite stops being popular.

Also please read my other comments in this thread for anecdata about my experience/feelings as a customer of both Apple and Epic.

The answer is not disingenuous at all, I think you just find it hard to accept because it is simple. You are actually trying to argue that a walled garden app store where users and developers have no other choice is always better for everyone, and that everyone should want it, because the single point of failure man-in-charge knows what's best for everybody. Do you even believe that? Or do you feel compelled to defend Apple?

You're not even making a coherent argument. Epic is making a short-term play at rent seeking? That doesn't make any sense. They're trying to be able to charge for individual products the way they do on any other open platform. Platforms that do not filter through single monolithic app stores, and which - surprise - are successful and enjoyed by millions of users and developers.

FYI, the person you are responding to, does not want to actually address any of your points or arguments that you are bringing up. Instead, they just wants to sidestep your points.

He copy pasted the exact same comment in a conversation with me, which is why I am bringing it up. Instead of actually saying anything related to what I said, he just posted that copy-paste comment.

Likely, because they had nothing to add, related to the actual comments and points that you or I brought up.

Before continuing to participate in this discussion, I'm curious as to the character of person I'm discussing with, how many years have you,

- used an iPhone as your primary device?

- used an Android as your primary device?

- played Fortnite, and on what device?

For me it was 6 years of Android before switching to an iPhone for the last 4 years. I've been playing a lot of Fortnite (less during the waterworld season) on a PS4 over the last 11 months.

Rationale:

Especially because you're arguing for sideloading and Android already allows that, yet Epic is still suing Google. I ask because when you keep saying you're arguing "for customers" and "pro-competition".

I'm just wondering what background experience you have with all of these different companies and platforms that helps you judge what is best "for competition and the customer".

Tim Sweeney may believe that, but he’s made a lot of dumb decisions lately.

> iOS did not make the success of Fortnite

Does iOS make the success of any app?

> Because if the app was permitted to be installed outside of the app store, it would make more money, meaning the app store offers negative utility to some developers. Fortnite is a huge brand outside of iOS. It iOS did not make the success of Fortnite. Epic doesn't need the app store's advertising to succeed, and being forced to go through this bottleneck only hampers them.

It’s the same for Epic on PlayStation, Switch and Xbox.