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Re:Is the web getting slower? by rhizome on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:01PM (#24414635)
Yes, demonstrably and provably. Count the number of pageload indicators (spinners, throbbers...whatever you like to call them) in your daily browsing. They are everywhere...now.

AJAX (and, I suspect, the shadown DOM model) have proliferated in recent years, and there is no site design simple enough that someone hasn't thought to put every page element behind a JS call. Don't forget to put CSS in there, too!

Frontend developers are at fault for all this. There, I said it.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:21PM (#24414817)
> Frontend developers are at fault for all this. There, I said it.

Let me trade one dead horse for another: Product and marketing teams are at fault for all this. Or if you prefer, the advertising industry is at fault.

Take the payload of any typical blog or (God help you) your small-town newspaper website and count how many requests correspond to the actual content. Now ask yourself, who's paying someone to bloat this website, and why?

Re:Is the web getting slower? by lhorie on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:00PM (#24415087)
Eh. If one wants to play the blame game, we can be here all day. The marketing dept asking to add sharing widgets are to blame. The team lead pushing for Squarespace so they can get away hiring junior devs under them is to blame. The frontend dev using half of the React ecosystem on a static site + simple form is to blame. The designer insisting on huge eye candy images is to blame. The UX person set on adding a carousel is to blame. The project manager prioritizing feature count is to blame. Etc etc etc.

The bottom line is that nobody really has any strong incentives to advocate for performance, so it falls by the sidelines.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by mpoteat on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:06PM (#24415139)
Maybe the users are too blame as they measurably prefer websites with modern UX and don't really care about latency over a few hundred milliseconds.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by searchableguy on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:10PM (#24415172)
Not really. People are forced to use many products of big companies and others which are largely responsible for this.

If your school uses gsuite (which they likely will given free stuff and integration), you can't choose not to use gsuite.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by arvinsim on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @01:14AM (#24417381)
> People are forced to use many products of big companies and others which are largely responsible for this.

Same way as dev employees are forced by companies to prioritise features over optimisation.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by veilrap on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:12PM (#24415188)
I don't think there's really a problem with a couple 100ms of latency for web services. However, what often happens, is that "modern" websites take many seconds to actually do simple operations which is clearly horrible design.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by pojzon on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:41PM (#24426264)
I literally despise new UX of gmail, Ive switched to html version simply because I dont need the bloat crap they try to push at me while checking mailbox...

Yet they keep on adding more and more crap, soon Gmail is going to load for over a minute..

Re:Is the web getting slower? by RandoHolmes on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:41PM (#24415388)
> The frontend dev using half of the React ecosystem on a static site + simple form is to blame.

I once saw a website that took a full minute to load, and it was literally a page with images, text overflowing around it, and then some download links. But the way it was built... my god, the way it was built.

That company brought in a new "CTO", and his solution was to dump the entire thing in google cloud. I shit you not, this CTO initially installed an EOL version of PHP, and when errors started happening, he started submitting PR's to revert the PHP code to be compatible with the EOL version of PHP.

Dumpster Fire.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by aogl on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:11PM (#24415609)
This is just insane.. yet I completely believe you..
Re:Is the web getting slower? by wolco on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:33AM (#24417154)
The question is why did he need that specific php version? Was there something that required it and if so could that be isolated?
Re:Is the web getting slower? by p_l on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @08:00AM (#24420053)
That's what he figured to install, probably...

Been there, done that, have scars.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by RandoHolmes on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @09:49AM (#24420943)
His explanation is that's what google cloud defaulted too, although I have a really hard time believing that.

I'm more inclined to believe he googled and blindly followed an old guide with an old ppa than I am to believe that google cloud by default installed an EOL PHP server.

I'm pretty sure he was a node guy who found himself in the PHP world.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by artificial on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:38PM (#24415366)
Raise you Automotive. Store sites are the worst. The industry reason: it's all about tracking conversions and answering the question of how much did it cost me to sell this.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by fibers on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:54PM (#24415025)
'i was only following orders'
Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @10:37PM (#24416295)
Most people, web developers included, don't have the luxury to quit their job every time they disagree with the decisions being made for them.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by dijit on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:31PM (#24414885)
I didn’t touch “web dev” since php/dream-weaver/myspace era.

I started working with some web developers for a simple project recently, my mock product was built with vue.js using the standard way of “including” it: But what really threw me for a loop was that the web developers told me that that’s wrong, they are now _compiling_ (Or, semantically “packing”) JavaScript blobs to make even very simple websites.

I don’t know why we as a community have started doing that, but it feels like an anti-pattern, it makes adding new dependencies opaque and we can very quickly end up including dozens and dozens of lines of code which must all be rendered by every device that comes into contact with my site.

Often this happens because we want only a small bit of the functionality too.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by sanitycheck on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:46AM (#24419213)
So.. There are benefits to this for complex apps - but 90% (charitably) of this kind of code is not in a complex app.

I think it's for two main reasons:

1. If you don't use complicated new technology you won't get a job doing web dev.

2. Many new JS devs don't understand JS/HTML/CSS well, they only understand a particular framework - and even then not in a sufficiently deep way.

When you come across a seemingly normal site that requires JS in order to display anything, it's pretty unlikely that anyone involved ever considered not doing it that way.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by lukeramsden on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:06AM (#24418572)
> Often this happens because we want only a small bit of the functionality too.

To be fair, this 'compiling' also allows for tree shaking, which if you use a well-structured library like lodash/date-fns etc, allows you to get that small bit of functionality without paying for the whole library.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by gtr on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:43AM (#24419595)
Often this is to do with making a site work across browsers. IE11 is the bane of our lives! Plus doing the transpiling allows using things like Typescript which is a godsend on a complex site.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:04AM (#24416992)
Wait till someone wants to add JS polyfills for everything...
Re:Is the web getting slower? by RandoHolmes on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:45PM (#24415407)
100% with you there.

I personally think it's a bit insane to add node.js as a dependency to a simple PHP project.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:02AM (#24416982)
To be honest, we've seen this in Rails and PHP in the form of grunt.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by starik36 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:21PM (#24415250)
> Frontend developers are at fault for all this

As a recent front end dev, I fought tooth and nail not to include all kinds of tracking drek into the company's site. I lost every time because management overruled me.

At some point, it occurred to me that it's not my site and I shouldn't be taking personally that which doesn't belong to me.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by cblconfederate on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:51PM (#24415449)
this is not about tracking though. Even with an ad blocker, just about every website and blog now presents multiple spinning boxes when its loading. This is unnecessary , timewasting, environmentally unfriendly programming. And yes , 100% of the time it s devs that choose to build a site this way.

It's come to the point where i feel bad for using plain old single-request-loading html, because it doesn't look 'spinny' enough, and users may think it's uncool.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by sozy777 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @10:15PM (#24416111)
If business wants something quick and the cost of the website being slow doesn't matter... Why bother?

On the other side, I've been building websites that gets +95 on mobile on Google page speed. If no image above the fold... It gets 100. In mobile, yes. And I still have analytics, YouTube and images...

So I'd say depends by what business needs.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:59AM (#24418093)
> just about every website and blog now presents multiple spinning boxes when its loading

The vast majority of "page" content is baked into prerendered HTML and CSS rendered. I'm not sure what spinners you're talking about unless you're referring to web apps with timelines/news feeds that dynamically load.

Users love sites that load the important content and are interactive ASAP. Trust me, they appreciate your boring (fast) HTML.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by zwaps on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:57AM (#24418499)
see my above comment in this thread for a counter-example.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:42PM (#24415393)
An old colleague of mine in the 90's used to say "Software is like a gas. It expands to fill available space."

The behaviour of desktop software developers in 1990's was a prelude to web frontend and app developers today. As the resource capacity of PC's increased through the 90's, software developers grabbed it for themselves; for the end user, the experience of using the software never got any faster.

As the storage, processing power and network speeds have increased, web frontend and app developers seem to have grabbed it for themselves as well; the end user experience has generally not gotten faster (if the user follows the instructions: use popular, Javascript-enabled browser, enable images, video).

In the 1990's, users were asked to upgrade their computers so they could run the new, larger but not experientally faster, desktop software. Today, we see the same sort of OS and device upgrades; "unsupported" versions of software that will not run on newer version of the OS. Plus we have a culture of allowing automatic, remotely-controlled installation of new software. Automatic upgrades. Telemetry. "Field testing" of new features. A sizeable amount of user choice and necessity for user consent has been successfully eliminated.

The number of outgoing TCP connections made by today's average websites, usually triggered through cascades of Javascript files, is simply staggering. It would never have been acceptable to do that with the networks and server software of the 1990's and 2000's. Users were not involved in the decision of developers to grab the newly available network resources and CPU for themselves.

I do not use a popular browser for most web use. This allows me to only make a single TCP connection to a website when I access it and can retrieve dozens or hundreds of pages over a single connection, thanks to old, standard features of the web documented in RFCs (pipelining). It is very fast and efficient. For me, the web has gotten much faster, but only because I choose the software and I decide whether and when to upgrade. It is my computer, after all. I am not really impressed by the popular browsers of today because it does not feel at all like the user is in control. Users of these programs have been reduced to guinea pigs.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:01AM (#24416965)
To be honest, we have decided that lowering the cost of building software is the best priority so we choose more and more abstracted software that requires more resources.

The javascript cascade from hell starts when you add a single ad. We wrote a test param to remove ads and the page load went from 35Mb to 1.2Mb... all of it was JS and ad tracking code.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by wolco on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:40AM (#24417193)
34m ads on each page load? Why not use an ad serving network?
Re:Is the web getting slower? by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @08:30AM (#24420258)
Yes. Money and Greed.

Edit: Server-side and client-side rebidding.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by nine_k on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:52PM (#24415910)
Product managers add features and/or speed up development by using more resource-hungry runtimes up to the point where the users still tolerate the performance but barely so. Once the product has enough traction and switching costs, the user would rather tolerate the mild pain of slowness than the more acute pain of switching and adapting to a (so far) faster competitor.

This is very much like the idea of the optimal price point where the customer already cringes but still buys.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by dahfizz on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:12PM (#24414736)
It's a culture problem in the web dev world. There is an obsession with new and shiny and building something "cool". It's all about the developer experience and not the product.

That's why there's such insane churn in the tooling and ecosystem. People rewrite and redesign constantly in order to work with the new cool framework.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:36PM (#24414903)
Insane churn? Wordpress powers over 1/3 of the web. JQuery is still doing most heavy JS lifting on most blogs/CMS-driven sites.

React has dominated "real" frontend webapp development for a solid 5 years.

These things don't make headlines or get retweeted. The web produces a lot of variety because it has the widest distribution and the lowest barriers to entry.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:33PM (#24415766)
I can do very well without some of that variety. Sometimes barriers to entry are a good thing.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @10:35PM (#24416283)
Not sure what you mean. You're welcome to hand-write all of your web apps from the ground up with zero dependencies and no build system. It's still the web.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by kulig on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:52PM (#24415012)
5 years is not a lot of time.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by namuol on Saturday September 12, 2020 @11:32PM (#24458063)
I think we can count on it to be around for awhile:

https://www.npmtrends.com/@angular/core-vs-react-vs-vue

Re:Is the web getting slower? by ericwood on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:26PM (#24415280)
This gets parroted a lot around here but the last 5 years or so there's really only been a few major players in the framework space. Maybe the "framework of the day" mentality was pretty strong in the early 2010's but things have cooled off significantly since then and you'd be hard-pressed to find most shops using more than the big 3-4 contenders.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by RandoHolmes on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:44PM (#24415402)
My experience is that it's just as relevant today.

I had a front-end developer come in and add node, bootstrap, and SCSS as a dependency to a very simple app. We went from having a super simple build chain to one that now needed maintenance. And part of his argument? he "thought better" in SCSS.

People have zero respect for the risk of dependencies, complicating the buildchain, or long term maintenance.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by pbalau on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:23AM (#24417099)
It's a combination of arrogance, lack of skill and sheer stupidity. For an example, look at nuxtjs docs, there is an example config, that everyone seem to use, that lints on each build. Because code using 4 spaces indentation is slower than code using 2 spaces...

The last ui dev I had to work with managed to produce in about 1 year a very complicated dockerfile, that was spewing, between other things, an image for e2e testing - but no actual tests and you needed a huge makefile to actually build the thing, a soup of copy-pasted config files that resulted in a vendors.js bundle of about 100 megs - there were more config files than source code, 2 branches named <username>.wip.somedate with commits that commented out some parts of a config, just to uncomment them back in the next commit. The app itself, with ssr no less, was a logo and some text, that was using some custom components, built with some third party vue component that was rendering css in js, thus you had to wait for the entire vendors.js to download before you got anything rendered. His answer to anyone questioning his choices was "this is how modern ux development works".

After he was let go, I took over the ui and along with another coworker we managed to have a working version of the app in 9 days, with no prior knowledge of vuejs and nuxtjs. You can imagine how complicated the app is...

Re:Is the web getting slower? by ericwood on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @01:49AM (#24417638)
I find this universally true in every corner of the stack and it has more to do with experience than anything else. It’s hardly “all front enders do this always.”

Still, to my point, the tools mentioned here have existed for a very long time with very large communities and are hardly the new shiny thing. Your complaint here seems to be more around using the wrong tool for the job.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by RandoHolmes on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @10:24AM (#24421299)
I don't disagree, but it's particularly bad on the frontend.

This particular frontend person had convinced the owner of the company that there were things you could do in SCSS that you couldn't do in CSS. I had to explain to said owner that SCSS was compiled down to CSS because the browser didn't understand SCSS. That you literally couldn't do anything in SCSS that wasn't allowed in CSS.

The owner ended up having a come to jesus moment when he tried to take all of the tools that frontend developer added and make them available in docker so that no one else had to install custom development tools. He spent several days, failed on it, and realized exactly why I was being so hardheaded about the build chain.

We never ended up getting rid of those dependencies, but I know the owner finally understood my point. Instead the team bifurcated into those who had their local environment setup to be able to successfully work on the frontend, and those who didn't.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by zwaps on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:55AM (#24418482)
Here is my favorite example of "put every page element behind a JS call":

https://www.scmp.com/

A news site. It does precisely the same thing as news sites did a decade ago. On my machine, it loads slowly. Then, it needs to re-load every time you scroll. It's extremely slow. Indeed, on Firefox, it doesn't load everything consistently. If you click on an article, things get even worse because it needs to reload text when you scroll. This website is what I would call "barely usable".

Let me reiterate: This site does nothing new compared to old news websites. There is zero benefit to the user. It simply is slow.

I don't know who is to blame for this. But if even your text loads slow, you are building a bad website. I am sure, some frontend developer got paid for making this website. I am not sure they should have been.

Re:Is the web getting slower? by Kiro on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:37AM (#24417943)
No, the article demonstrably and provably shows you why you're wrong.
Re:Is the web getting slower? by onion2k on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:45AM (#24418410)
Frontend developers are at fault for all this. There, I said it.

Is it frontend devs who are putting Turbolinks in Rails apps then?