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Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by bvanderveen on Thursday September 03, 2020 @05:01PM (#24368852)
So when can we address the elephant in the room and admit plainly that Facebook has net negative value for humanity and if Zuckerberg were a moral agent and not an alien lizard king he would have years ago liquidated the thing and imputed its net assets to the shareholders?
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by aeternum on Thursday September 03, 2020 @06:50PM (#24369747)
How have you quantified the impact Facebook has had on humanity?

Have you considered all evidence and not just the evidence which confirms your existing worldview?

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by smrtinsert on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:12PM (#24370786)
Millions of views of known conspiracy theories is a pretty good measure.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by toolz on Thursday September 03, 2020 @11:36PM (#24371481)
and you're sure that's a bad thing? I think anyone who regularly makes social predictions with falsifiable claims would hesitate to think such a matter is clear cut. People react and behave very unpredictabily.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by alphachloride on Thursday September 03, 2020 @11:19PM (#24371392)
For me, Facebook is unquestionably a net positive value. I get to keep tabs on friends without actively having to reach out. So people don't become strangers over time. I can discover events around me and expand my social circle. I can be start a business with a free web presence and attract customers.

The downsides that are mentioned are deteriorating discourse, misinformation, false expectations and social pressure etc. I like to think I have avoided these.

That's 1 data point against. I'll have to see more thorough evidence to concede FB is a net negative.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by potamic on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:47AM (#24373044)
What you don't realize is that Facebook lets you keep tabs on friends only they like, let's you discover events only they approve and let's your business get presence only when it aligns with their ideologies. They are not content with enabling connections and are showing every intent to become the political and ideological filter for the world. The real money is when you control information.

There is a lot of evidence coming out in India right now about how they influenced the elections in favour of the current ruling party. A party that has been involved in such shenanigans as demonetisation, Hindu nationalism, anti-Muslim rhetoric, weakening of the judiciary, complete media capture, and an absolutely abysmal management of the covid situation culminating in a 30% drop in GDP. If that is not evidence of net value, I don't know what is.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by doktorhladnjak on Friday September 04, 2020 @01:34AM (#24372014)
Unquestionably? How many of those "friends" that you keep tabs on have you talked to recently? And I don't mean leaving a comment or reading about their lives. One of the most dangerous negative effects of Facebook is that it makes people _feel_ socially connected to someone when they really have no social interaction or connection at all.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by alphachloride on Friday September 04, 2020 @01:47AM (#24372090)
Yes, unquestionably it is a net positive for me. I have talked to a small minority of my friends that I keep tabs on. Without facebook, I would have talked to an even smaller number.

I don't see how the number of chats I have is an exclusive measure of value of that platform. That is but one metric.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by bvanderveen on Friday September 04, 2020 @09:25PM (#24380651)
User 'potamic' made most of the point I would have made, so I'll address this:

> I get to keep tabs on friends without actively having to reach out. So people don't become strangers over time.

This is a fundamental perversion of the notion of social interaction. It proposes an argument whose form and frame substitutes people and relationships for a passive consumption of images of people and relationships. Instead of people becoming strangers over time (which is normal and healthy), everyone is transformed into simulacra of acquaintances or friends instantly; you are implicitly, automatically estranged from the beginning. Your Facebook-mediated relationships last longer than they would have without Facebook precisely because of its impersonal and inauthentic character which absolves you of the real effort otherwise required to have an authentic relationship.

To use it is to delegate an always-increasing portion of your social existence to the black-box of the Zuckertron, with all of the political, ideological, and economic implications, caveats, and perturbances that come with it. To wit: you've already accepted the argument, and you're here defending it with evidence amounting to 'everyone else plugged into the Borg cube is plugged into the Borg cube, together we all cube the Borg cube'.

Needless to say, I am skeptical that the niche Facebook has carved out for itself as the arbiter of who-and-what-I-see-and-how and who-and-what-sees-me-and-how is likely to work out in my favor.

Recommended reading: The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction, Walter Benjamin https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by alphachloride on Monday September 14, 2020 @05:53AM (#24468424)
What is the notion of social interaction? What do you mean by normal and healthy? I disagree that the scenario you laid out is necessarily true. It is possible though, yes.

I curate my friends list and often prune connections I have drifted away from. The friends I keep on FB are people I want to continue to be friends with. Because people were on my friends list and I saw them online in my periphery, I was more comfortable reaching out to them when I visited their cities after many years. Granted, there are some people who were, and will remain casual acquaintances - but having or not having them in my feed has no effect on me that I can tell.

So I do not think being able to keep tabs is an argument for passive consumption of people. Indeed, it has helped me actively reconnect. I do not agree that using FB is delegating an ever increasing portion of my social existence to the "black-box of the Zuckertron". I do not use FB as a substitute for people I can connect with in person. I also think you are mis-characterizing my argument under the influence of your feelings about FB.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by Lineup on Friday September 04, 2020 @02:33AM (#24372289)
Right! And that's really a great point, it can be a positive for individuals. Except that for society it has negative value. This is like opening a mine, extracting all the resources, and leaving behind a poisonous scab on the earth. (Not coincidentally the way I picture MZ.)
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by alphachloride on Friday September 04, 2020 @11:46AM (#24376000)
I have not seen evidence to quantify its value to society as a positive/negative. Would society have been worse off or better off without Facebook? I believe that is not an answerable question because it is alternate history.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by switch11 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @06:29PM (#24369611)
That is a simplified assumption

everyone starts off human

then money distorts things

I have seen a lot of very honest people get suckered into doing things they never would

once money starts coming in, people's morals change to accommodate how they make money

Not everyone can be like Craig Newmark etc. and be indifferent to money

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by Barrin92 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @06:33PM (#24369636)
I'm pretty sure there's an ethical version of Facebook somewhere in there that would still make more money than anyone can blow even if they did hookers and coke 24/7

Goes for software engineers personally as well, the difference between working on something that's ethical and working on something that isn't probably is the difference between a comfortable five figure salary and an absurd six figure one, not living in a subway station

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by Waterluvian on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:28PM (#24370487)
If The Social Network and some of the stories I’ve read portray Zuckerberg in any accuracy, it seems like he was a very...atypical... social being even before getting rich.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by ericbarrett on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:50PM (#24370665)
They do not. They get a lot of small details right but he is nothing like he is portrayed. I was at Facebook from 2009-2013, and while I didn’t know him personally or interact with him frequently, I was around him and saw him speak often enough to say the above with confidence.

One of the biggest errors in the movie is its portrayal of his motivation—by my understanding, he was already dating his wife (Priscilla Chan) before he wrote the first line of code for thefacebook.com.

I take no position here on his beliefs, morality, etc. I don’t actually know the man. And there’s no doubt he has some uncanny mannerisms. But the brooding antisocial fast-talking nerd is Jessie Eisenberg, not Mark Zuckerberg. Watch The Social Network and Zombieland back to back and you’ll see.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by Waterluvian on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:03PM (#24370728)
Thanks for sharing. I’ll have to dig deeper to see what more I can find about this.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by abraxas on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:38PM (#24370560)
So... a sociopath?
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by 6510 on Friday September 04, 2020 @02:25AM (#24372249)
True but conditionally: I blame the Facebook on programmers not delivering these puny tools to the public. We collectively didn't get much further than the blogroll. Sharing something was done with idiotic bookmarklets until firefox (I think it was) sentenced them into the void.

For me personally the best "joke" (I think it turned out to be) was to propose freenode profile pages and friends lists. (IRC 3.0!) The mere suggestion made the nerds really angry. When I realized it was a joke I did what all comedians do and added additional puns like putting advertisement on the profiles. Safe to say my development effort was as bad as the response.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by jameslk on Friday September 04, 2020 @01:03AM (#24371845)
The personal attack isn't necessary to communicate your point.
Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by rasz on Friday September 04, 2020 @03:31AM (#24372623)
>They "trust me"

>Dumb fucks.

Re:Zuckerberg: this election is not going to be business as ... by disgruntledphd2 on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:02AM (#24372780)
Who amongst us has not said something (well, many things for me at least) when they were 19?