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Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by slfnflctd on Thursday September 03, 2020 @07:59AM (#24363114)
At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed.

I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit.

Furthermore - and perhaps most importantly - it is a preferred failure mode to freaking out or engaging in suicidal ideation. When I'm overwhelmed by that gloom, I remind myself that I could have a stroke, aneurysm or heart attack at any moment, and I think about what the consequences would be if I did. As long as I'm in a safe situation, I can simply take my first opportunity to Just. Stop. Taking time to shut down, and to cease forcing yourself to engage with a world that would go on without you if you suddenly died, is a good idea now & then.

Yeah, at times I feel some twinges of guilt for doing this. It seems selfish on the surface. But when you compare it to the alternatives, well-- it's better than being dead, isn't it? I feel like my ability to manage my life (and depression) has improved considerably with this insight. If you need to stop, stop. Rest. Let whatever is pushing you to the brink simmer in a corner for a while, provided it is physically safe to do so. You will be better equipped to deal with it when you've had a chance to breathe, and to remind yourself that a temporary shutdown is indeed better than being dead.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by hexxiiiz on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:01AM (#24364121)
This may make sense for you in particular, but it a lot of people the signal provided by depression is distinct in its persistent alarm about something that isn't really in the present. Listening to the signal and stopping to take stock of it and make changes is often what makes depression so paralyzing, since it is characteristic of it that this doesnt help. Depression for most people is that "stop, stop, rest" happening indefinitely. This is not to say that what works for you doesn't work for you. But, in general, treating depression like an important signal of something really wrong in one's life that one needs to stop and address before moving forward is pretty much depression itself.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by golergka on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:30AM (#24364431)
> about something that isn't really in the present

Or is it? Therapy, especially gestalt or existential, often makes people realise that something really is off with their outlook on life, relationships with other people or other things like this — something that they had paid no attention to and perceived as "normal", that really wasn't. And in the end, what started as their fight against depression ended up as work to fix the core reason for which that depression was only a symptom.

I know this to be the case with myself and some close friends of mine. I'm not a health professional, and this is anecdotal evidence, but from talking to other people and therapists, I hear about this quite often.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by jhanschoo on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:00PM (#24371025)
PTSD among combat vets, for example, can have a person chronically frightful while they live in a safe environment actively preventing them from properly apprehending their current environment. Most people who want to rid themselves of their mental illnesses aren't experiencing it as a signal that their outlook is wrong, their mental illness is actively hampering their ability to properly engage and function in their life.

And for illnesses with a stressor: sometimes a person is not empowered to resolve it.

You shouldn't have too much faith in your own biology, it is far from perfect.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by jiggybling on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:33PM (#24365758)
Can you give an example, personal or otherwise?
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by cbanek on Thursday September 03, 2020 @01:00PM (#24366084)
Not the OP, but I'm in therapy personally, and just as a personal example, didn't realize that some current reactions and feelings were colored by past experiences. In particular, this has to do with patterns I hadn't noticed across different relationships and work. Like my pathological independence and general lack of trust in humanity.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by golergka on Thursday September 03, 2020 @06:23PM (#24369563)
This is not an anonymous nickname, so I wouldn't be able to give you an honest and full answer.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by jiggybling on Friday September 04, 2020 @11:19AM (#24375699)
fair enough
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by taurath on Thursday September 03, 2020 @04:30PM (#24368532)
Often the "answers" to why one is depressed can be hidden under many layers. It can be from a psychological source, a physiological/neurological source (an injury, etc), or a physiological source BROUGHT ON BY a psychological source, that may or may not continue to exist.

The last part is in my experience the thing people are missing that creates a lot of arguments, especially around medication. I have gone through lots of trauma growing up, and I only recently learned of the role of the interplay between the physical and the mental. I had always eschewed medication - and I still think it to be /mostly/ a first-aid treatment. There's nothing to say that someone has a long-term physiological imbalance, or one that we don't know how to treat. Therefore its valid if someone needs to be on a medication for the long term. The saying goes amongst people I know - "If you can't make your own neurochemicals, store bought is fine.".

For me, medication allowed the relative calm in order to directly tackle and address childhood trauma and patterns of thinking that ultimately result in acute depression and anxiety. Unawareness of those triggers or ways to deal with them leads that acute depression/anxiety to become chronic over time, where no trigger is necessary.

CBT (cognative behavioral therapy) is a very good way to identify patterns of thoughts or thinking that doesn't make sense, or create a reaction that is far outside of the range that a person would expect. You end up having this moments of unclear thoughts when digging into past events, or things that upset you, or thoughts about yourself. I have learned to relish those - that means I'm learning something or making a connection that I didn't have before.

Finally, approaching entirely from the psychological side does not always give results. Having gone through lots and lots of cognative behavioral therapy, I'm fully aware when I'm being irrational or have a stronger than expected emotional reaction to things. I even apologize while I'm doing it! But it wasn't until I dug into a different type of therapy, EMDR, that started to approach from the physical side of things. I started to learn to notice things that were making my hands ball up in anger, even though I didn't notice them before. I learned that I dissociate sometimes and don't form memories of when I'm upset, which severely hampers my ability to address the things. All of this to say, its complex. It all has underlying rational reasons behind it, and seeking out information and building your own mental model of, well, your mental model, is a very helpful way to go about it, though it takes a long time.

So try medication, try therapy, try different types of therapy. Its extremely difficult. Its sort of like performing surgery on yourself. But there is always another path and more things to learn about yourself.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by derefr on Thursday September 03, 2020 @11:08AM (#24364769)
For some people, these diseases (depression, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar, schizophrenia, OCD, intermittent explosive disorder, etc.) are lifelong maladies present from birth; where even if the disease only “showed up” later on, it is known from the person’s genetics/neuroanatomy/etc. that it was inevitable for this person to get them, eventually, regardless of environment or lifestyle.

Such cases are no more adaptive than Cystic Fibrosis is adaptive. They’re malfunctions.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by j4nt4b on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:33PM (#24365753)
I would hesitate before calling these conditions "lifelong maladies present from birth". It's much more accurate to call them predispositions that may or may not manifest. And even so, the degree of manifestation may depend on the degree of trauma, addiction, or other challenges the person happens to face in life. This variation is what makes me doubt any clean division into adaptive/maladaptive cases. Not everyone so predisposed is triggered into these mental reactions through their life experiences, and not everyone who is so diagnosed is a lost cause, and furthermore, those who can manage their conditions may take offence at being called "malfunctioning" when they did in fact "adapt".
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by derefr on Thursday September 03, 2020 @02:45PM (#24367307)
> those who can manage their conditions may take offence at being called "malfunctioning" when they did in fact "adapt".

People don't malfunction; bodies do. People are (cybernetic) systems, composed of a mind and a body; but people's bodies specifically, when taken on their own—including their brains, when taken on their own as organs!—are just complex machines, that can have organic diseases. (In the case of the brain, we call these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_brain_syndrome s.)

If your computer spontaneously powers off whenever you open hit your keyboard's "A" key, that's a malfunction. Computers, as machines, aren't supposed to do that. If you avoid ever hitting the "A" key, you might have worked around the problem, but the problem itself is still present—the computer, considered as a standalone machine rather than a cybernetic operator-machine system, is still malfunctioning.

If you have an SNP in the gene DDC, causing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatic_L-amino_acid_decarbox..., that is a malfunction (or manufacturing defect) in your brain-as-machine. You — the mind-body system — might learn to adapt to/work around this malfunction; but that doesn't mean the brain-as-machine isn't continuing to malfunction. A working system can be constructed from unreliable components.

> who is so diagnosed is a lost cause

Who said anything about being a lost cause? For something to be maladaptive, it simply has to reduce inclusive genetic fitness, such that people with the condition reproduce less than people without the condition. That says nothing about whether you can live your life with the condition.

Whatever part of the human brain thinks getting a vasectomy is a good idea, is extremely maladaptive! But that's not to say that we don't prefer things that way. :)

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by xhrpost on Thursday September 03, 2020 @02:28PM (#24367112)
Interesting counterpoint, but if you don't make changes then, aren't you just trying harder at the same thing every day, expecting different results? I guess I sympathize with OP as "try harder tomorrow" just hasn't seemed to work for me. What is it you're suggesting if stop and rest is actually the wrong thing to do?
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by burkaman on Thursday September 03, 2020 @03:39PM (#24367910)
I think it's different for everyone, but therapy and/or drugs are often effective when your own efforts aren't enough. "Stop and rest" is not the wrong thing to do though, it just might not help.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by texasbigdata on Thursday September 03, 2020 @11:04AM (#24364714)
Very good book, “the Depths” about depression. It argues it’s partially an evolutionary response.

Also “quiet” by Susan Cain is even more excellent and insightful about introverts.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by GreenWatermelon on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:21PM (#24365614)
Is it really better than death? to me, death means salvation, I'll no longer have to deal with troubles.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by baron_harkonnen on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:49PM (#24365966)
“It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”

-- E. Cioran

The trouble with "death means salvation", and believe me I know that yearning, is that you don't get to experience this salvation. Suicide is literally not the answer, because you will never get to experience the relief on the other end. This is the essence of Cioran's quote here. It would have been better to not exist, but it's too late for that now and ceasing to exist will not, in fact, afford you any sense of relief. The only relief you feel is in the fantasizing about death itself.

Eventually you will die and after that point it won't matter how long or how painfully you've lived. From the perspective of death life doesn't matter at all, but you won't be alive to experience that perspective.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by 3pt14159 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @02:24PM (#24367069)
Believe me, I know what it is to suffer. But even though I lean against suicide strongly since I've lived the whole "if you're going through hell keep going" thing, and the relief when the (years long) suffering is over is immense. However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots.

Would it be better to be tortured for years? To have your family knowing that your fingernails got ripped out? That you lost your genitals to electrocution?

I'm not sure. Plenty of heroes committed suicide.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by leetcrew on Thursday September 03, 2020 @06:16PM (#24369514)
> However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots.

it does raise an interesting, if morbid question. personally, I think it is fine for someone to kill themselves (or receive assistance in doing so) if they are facing a near certainty of terrible suffering for the rest of their life. the tricky part is the "certainty" bit. many people experience varying degrees of suffering at some point in their lives, but it is uncommon for it to persist throughout their entire lives.

if you are interested in a way to sidestep this specific question, I would point out that the pills are not only for the benefit of the pilots. the measure is also to protect others who might be harmed by information divulged under interrogation.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by 3pt14159 on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:05AM (#24375018)
Yeah, that is a valid point that I've thought about as well. Though there is also the argument that pilots would be told less critical information if the people commanding them didn't expect them to commit suicide before capture.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by leetcrew on Friday September 04, 2020 @11:35AM (#24375870)
FWIW, the US claims that they no longer give these pills to any military personnel. [0]

as for why the pilots in particular, my (fairly uneducated) guess is that pilots inherently have knowledge of more sensitive information than a typical infantry person. while the soldier probably only has knowledge of local troop movements that will be stale in a few days (most US infantry standard procedures and equipment details are public knowledge), the pilot may know classified information about the aircraft they are flying.

[0] https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/02/19/suicide-pill...

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by agumonkey on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:33PM (#24365759)
If GP meant what I think he meant and he did manage to swim out of troubled waters.. I think yeah. And in general I remember that I was born to survive not to die. That every tuesday I get a happy moment.. so things are not fully broken. But I need to remove the noxious part of my life so more happy moments come than sad ones.

Again it's not a universal solution but very often when you change context, you find yourself having it easier. You're not even trying to be happy, it just grows around.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by podgaj on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:21AM (#24363266)
Do you realize these two sentences say the same exact thing? You have a pain, which is a signal of a disorder, and you need to change something to fix it.

"At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed."

"I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit."

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by Solstinox on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:48AM (#24363476)
No. One sees the depression as something to be fixed, the other sees the underlying problem causing the depression as something to be fixed.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by podgaj on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:02AM (#24363601)
Yeah, I agree. But the signal is still the disorder that needs to be fixed.

Any psychiatrist will tell you that psychiatric medications only treat the symptoms of mood disorders and that they do not know the cause of most of them. It is hogwash that they think mood disorders are "only chemical imbalances in the brain". They know these disorders are polygenic and environmental. But for some people, a short dose of SSRI's or antipsychotics can keep them alive long enough to find out what it is that is giving them so much pain, i mean singnals.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by montagg on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:20AM (#24363754)
Are you familiar with what it’s like to have depression? It’s not something you can really ever get rid of, even if you can mitigate it with medication and lifestyle changes. It’s there, though not dominant, even when things are going well and even when you’re in a positive mood.

I struggle with similar feelings, and the idea that depression becomes something that is there but can be put to positive use absolutely tracks with my own experience.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by podgaj on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:07AM (#24364172)
Please read my other posts. I have a 35 year history of hospitalizations for both manic and depressive episodes and I have attempted suicide twice. I have lived with 9 month long depressions where all I could do was watch cartoons and not enough energy to even brush my teeth.

If one cannot get rid of depression then one cannot get rid of heart disease or cancer.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by sizzle on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:51PM (#24370981)
Have you been tested for lyme's disease regarding the lack of energy?
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by TheAdamAndChe on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:50AM (#24364006)
I think depression can spiral into a positive feedback loop that forms a depressive disorder. Mood affects life which affects mood which affects life...

Many people who haven't been stuck in that positive feedback loop have still been blue. Their capacity to feel happiness is muted just like ours, but they are successfully able to get out of that with a behavioral change. That's not always the case with a depressive disorder, and it can take a multi-faceted approach of medications, lifestyle change, sleep hygiene improvement, sometimes electroshock therapy for those people to get out of it.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by throwaway_pdp09 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:30AM (#24364432)
I had it a large chunk of my life. It went, eventually. It can go but that's because it's not in my nature/mind/brain/chemistry/whatever. In this I'm very fortunate, but please don't completely rule out defeating it, though the odds are poor.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by BurningFrog on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:02AM (#24364132)
> Are you familiar with what it’s like to have depression?

Pretty sure there are many distinct conditions that we now call "depression".

Your description is very true for some of them, and not at all for others.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by Delk on Thursday September 03, 2020 @03:43PM (#24367977)
This probably varies by the person.

Some people might get a single episode, then get through it one way or another, and never have another one.

Others might have a lifelong tendency or vulnerability to it, and in that sense it might always be there in the background. I'm fairly certain I was more or less depressed (although not diagnosed) in my teenage years and early 20's. In my later 20's things were brighter, although I probably had a tendency for some amount of depression, especially during the darker winter months of the year (I live in the north). However, there were definitely times when I wouldn't have considered myself depressed. I'm not sure I'd even say it was "there" at those times, in the sense of being actively present in any way, even in a non-dominant way.

Later on, I got another deeper episode of depression that I'm still battling.

Yet other people might have it always there in some way, as you say.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by User23 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @10:20AM (#24364311)
Amphetamines have shown some promising results in actually curing depression. There is a vicious cycle of depression where the anhedonia and lack of motivation cause the sufferer to allow the underlying causes to get even worse leading to deeper depression. Amphetamines can help break that cycle and ideally even start a virtuous cycle where their use can be tapered and eventually discontinued. It's vitally important though that the drug treatment is combined with behavioral modification so that the artificial stimulation of reward circuits can be operant conditioned on behavior patterns that mitigate the underlying cause of depression. Anyhow I might be off on the jargon since college psychology was a long time ago, but the basic concept strikes me as highly plausible and consistent with what we know about the human mind. And anecdotally I have friends who benefited from amphetamines for depression.

However used improperly it can end in amphetamine addiction or even psychosis. It's not surprising most mainstream psychiatrists don't like to use them for depression, but it is a powerful tool in the box.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by volkl48 on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:52PM (#24365998)
That seems perfectly reasonable to me as a line of reasoning, and I'm not casting doubt on whether it could work.

With that said, I also wonder how many of those people had undiagnosed ADHD/if such studies involved screening for ADHD.

Unmanaged ADHD leading to consistent failures in life and other difficulties -> depression/depressive symptoms from the consequences, lack of achievement, etc over the long term, is a pretty common story.

And obviously, the responsiveness of those with ADHD to stimulants is pretty well-known.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by dsego on Thursday September 03, 2020 @05:33PM (#24369135)
> However used improperly it can end in amphetamine addiction or even psychosis.

Someone I know managed to do that, despite being on intramuscular antipsychotics. Unfortunately no middle ground, the meds keep him anhedonic and abulic, but without them it's mania. I would be careful with stimulants.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by bluntfang on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:24AM (#24363787)
>It is hogwash that they think mood disorders are "only chemical imbalances in the brain".

Who are you quoting here? What psychiatrists think this? AFAIK, this hasn't been the meta for a long time.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by perl4ever on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:46PM (#24365932)
I can't speak to exactly who uses this terminology, and I have not heard it from a medical professional, but I feel like it lingers on, like in medication pamphlets.

Because fundamentally, I think, it is necessary to try to get people to comply with medication that seems to help sometimes, while avoiding the reality that the way it works is not known.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by podgaj on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:52AM (#24364035)
No, I agree with you. I do not find psychiatrists believe that mood disorders are only chemical imbalances in the brain.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by zepto on Thursday September 03, 2020 @11:26AM (#24364938)
I have come across people have been led to believe it’s a chemical imbalance by psychiatrists, even in the last few years.

It may not be the modern psychiatric view, but it’s also true that psychiatrists are just doctors, and many of them are very slow to change from what they were taught in medical school.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by agumonkey on Thursday September 03, 2020 @12:34PM (#24365768)
it's a default API for brains, but ideas will trigger neurochemistry too .. well I'm sure you got that already
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by typicalset on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:44AM (#24363451)
I think these two sentences are different: it's analogous to treating a symptom vs treating an underlying condition.
Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by podgaj on Thursday September 03, 2020 @08:53AM (#24363517)
Yeah, I agree with that distinction. This is am important semantic discussion.

But he just changed the name of the thing he wants to get rid of from "pain" to "signal". The signal is still a disorder. The signal is the thing that bothers us.

Re:Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses t... by abdullahkhalids on Thursday September 03, 2020 @09:20AM (#24363749)
I think they is saying that if you put your hand on a hot thing, you get a signal. You can also call it pain. But the problem is not an internal problem with your body, but a consequence of your environment. So change your environment or what you are doing and the pain will disappear. Don't try to keep your environment the same and try to change within.

(I don't entirely agree with them, but that's my best summary of their argument).