As a language learner (working on my 8th right now), I dabble in Duolingo from time to time and agree that it provides contact time with the language, and any contact time helps reinforce memory.

Language learning in general though, I have found, is not that amenable to gamification. Some learning methods may be more efficient than others, but even with the most efficient methods, real language learning is still inherently and unavoidably a slog. So if you come across a method that makes it "easy", chances are it's not actually working. It's too easy to trick oneself to think that one is making progress, and then find oneself unable to communicate when called upon to do so.

In the polyglot (ie actual practitioners of extreme language learning) community, there are many super talented language learners but a common pattern among them is the use of surprising traditional learning methods. Most do not use Duolingo but instead elect to do things the hard way, by actually going through workbooks, talking to tutors on iTalki, making mistakes, exposing themselves to media, translating, etc. Space repetition tools are sometimes used. Pimsleur is good for speaking, but not reading/writing so it doesn't get used that much.

There are clips of YouTubers where creators show you how to learned a language to a conversational level in 24 hours etc. but if you look more closely, the experiments are highly edited and the actual outcome is not that great.

I've resigned myself to the fact that the way to actually to learn a language is to jump in and do it the hard way, rather than through easier shortcuts. Language learning is about creating new reflexes and creating new pathways int he brain and there's no easy way to do that (the brain itself resists) without discomfort.

That said, tools like Duolingo do create fun and interest in a language -- and fun is needed to sustain oneself through the journey.

> Language learning in general though, I have found, is not that amenable to gamification. Some learning methods may be more efficient than others, but even with the most efficient methods, real language learning is still inherently and unavoidably a slog. So if you come across a method that makes it "easy", chances are it's not actually working

Go to a foreign country and try to get laid. Genuine intrinsic motivation, and the difficulty increases with age. If nothing else, this education is good preparation for a career in business

Heh, that's the usual advice. However if you ask certain polyglots, they will tell you that as a general rule (exceptions exist), being in a foreign country or having a romantic partner aren't necessary or sufficient conditions, and in fact can work against language learning.

How so?

Using a romantic partner as a language-learning partner gets old for said person after a while, especially if you're not actively making progress on the language on the side. Unless said romantic partner is a language teacher, it can be annoying for them to constantly be correcting your mistakes. Over time, this annoyance can actually harm the relationship. Also most native speakers of a language aren't always good teachers -- they may know how to use the language but usually can't explain how things work. It's better to get a tutor whose job is to instruct, bear with your mistakes, and go home after. It's easier to for someone to bear with your mistakes if they don't have to spend all their free time with you.

As for language immersion by living in a country, you'd be surprised how that doesn't really work unless you're actively learning on your own or taking classes. Case in point: I lived in a French-speaking province for 4 years but can barely speak French -- I just never bothered learning. You'd think necessity would force one to learn but there are so many ways to get around actually doing it (e.g. hanging out with expats, using gestures/hand signs, Google Translate, etc.) On the other hand, there are folks who've never been in a Francophone country who can speak French at a high level, often through active learning. In fact, many polyglots often become fluent in a language without ever setting foot in the language's country of origin.

The key really is putting in the work. Getting laid in a foreign country may help kickstart the process, but to achieve working fluency, there are no real shortcuts.

(well, there is one, which is that you already know a related language. This is the only major accelerant. You can learn Afrikaans very quickly if you speak Dutch. Similarly for Malay -> Indonesian, Portuguese -> Spanish ... interestingly, this pair is asymmetric: Spanish -> Portuguese is harder than vice-versa)

Interesting, I think I largely agree. However, I think the polyglot community is probably not a great representation of what would work for most people. For a lot of people, myself included, I think the choice is realistically between lower commitment (and lower quality/speed of learning) options and nothing at all. At least for myself it would take a lot of motivation to consistently do workbooks for years, major props to the people who can though.

That’s a fair point. Good luck!

I believe his point is not that gamification doesn't work for learning, but rather that it has a nasty side effect of training your brain to be more susceptible to addiction/gamification everywhere, even where you don't want it.

I understand that and definitely a valid point especially for kids. I'm just making the point that in some situations there can be real benefits of using gamification. Like most things balance is important.

Duolingo is great as a beginning to language study but that’s all there is to it. If you have a 410 day Spanish streak it’s time to start reading Spanish children’s books or watching telenovelas or Narcos, anything but continuing with Duolingo.

Yeah I agree (sorry I edited the original post to essentially say this while you wrote the comment). I also took a semester of Spanish in college and Duolingo let me (barely) place into the second level class. I've also been watching Spanish media (Telemundo, Casa de Papel, Pasion de Gavilanes) and just started a Spanish meetup group to practice speaking.

What Duolingo has been best for is getting a baseline vocab and familiarity with the language. It also lets you stay fresh/keep making progress when you don't have time or mental effort to spend more than a few minutes a day.

Duolingo takes you 10 minutes a day. If it's the only thing you're doing, I agree it's not sufficient, but I disagree with stopping doing it - it has mechanisms to reinforce what you learned.

But what you’ve learned isn’t all that valuable from a language perspective. It doesn’t matter how well is reinforcing lessons of those lessons weren’t very valuable in the first place.

I have been on a streak for weeks, usually in the top 10 of that week's tournament, yet I am actually making no real progress in actually learning the language. Nothing is really going to beat rote memorization and full immersion I feel.

This isn't as big of a problem for latin based languages (English native) however.

Perfect illustration of GP point: you played for 410 days, yet you only learned the content of what is probably only a few hours of focused learning.

I’ve tested Duolinguo for languages I want to learn, for some I already know and a language BA/MA holder I can guarantee that Duolingo is total crap. This is just a feel good app. Just like another post was mentioning hiw note taking can do more harm than good because it feels like work, Duolingo is given the user the feeling of work and progression while very very little knowledge is gained. Let’s take Japanese as an example. Hiragana and katakana are each divided in 4 parts: a user can easily spend weeks on that and feel he’s making progress. University student on the other side learn that in a week... (for slow learners)