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Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by airstrike on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:58PM (#24285196)
My issue with Brutalism is that it seems to evoke a sense of helplessness of the individual against the sheer size of the State. No wonder it was so popular in totalitarian regimes.

I often think of Brasilia, the capital of Brazil. A city literally built in the middle of nowhere and with virtually no sidewalks, making it incredibly costly for individuals to reach it and organize themselves to protest against the government. Its streets literally have no name⁰. Imagine living on SHS W2 or SEN L1!

I was raised to love Oscar Niemeyer, but nowadays I can't help wishing he chose to lend his beautiful creativity to something other than architecture.

__________

0. https://www.quora.com/How-do-people-living-in-Brasilia-refer...

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by forinti on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:27PM (#24285590)
The first time I visited Brasilia I saw a cleaning lady changing her uniform under a bridge.

This describes perfectly the Brazilian state: big, distant, not prepared to deal in practical day to day issues (like having a place to change clothes or a sidewalk to walk on).

The architecture underlines this mentality quite well.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by eternalban on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:23PM (#24286855)
> My issue with Brutalism is that it seems to evoke a sense of helplessness of the individual against the sheer size of the State. No wonder it was so popular in totalitarian regimes.

Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/EmpirePl...

~

I would not want to live there either, just like I probably wouldn't enjoy living in an equally sublime Tadao Ando house. But in my opinion, Brasilia, regardless of its failure, is a sublimely beautiful work of architecture. I for one am glad it was built. I'm fairly certain it will serve [at some point in the future] as a 'blueprint' for a vocabulary of elements of architecture, in the same way that Vitruvius and classical orders played the muse for a resurgent European architecture.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by thethethethe on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:01PM (#24288285)
> My issue with Brutalism is that it seems to evoke a sense of helplessness of the individual against the sheer size of the State. No wonder it was so popular in totalitarian regimes.

You have this backwards. Brutalism was popular in the Soviet Union because it is austere, symbolizing equality and utilitarianism. Back in the early days, brutalism was actually seen as progressive. It’s association with totalitarianism is a result of western propaganda and the failures of the soviet bureaucracy.

> I often think of Brasilia, the capital of Brazil. A city literally built in the middle of nowhere and with virtually no sidewalks, making it incredibly costly for individuals to reach it and organize themselves to protest against the government. Its streets literally have no name⁰. Imagine living on SHS W2 or SEN L1!

Basically none of this is related to brutalism. What you are describing is a failed attempt at new urbansim. Brasilia is divided into "superblocks", which are essentially self-contained communities with all required services in the center. This design was similar to soviet urban planning at the time, though the superblocks were much bigger (and less successful) in Brasilia. This design ultimately resulted in large boulevards and car centric transportation, defeating its initial goals

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by airstrike on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:47PM (#24288617)
> ou have this backwards. Brutalism was popular in the Soviet Union because it is austere, symbolizing equality and utilitarianism.

I don't disagree it's purported to be egalitarian, but to me that's just a codeword for suppressing individual expression as I've said elsewhere.

And utilitarianism at the expense of beauty makes for terribly sad creations.

I'm on Roger Scruton's side on this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by rirarobo on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:59PM (#24289113)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though.

Some people might say that various religious monuments remind them of how that religion suppresses individual expression. On the other hand, the same might be said about certain architecture in say Japan, that it evokes a sense of collectivism. Yet some people will find that beautiful while others might find it stifling.

I would guess that the vast majority of people have never heard of "Brutalism", and if you were to show them examples there would be a wide range of responses. How many people could say whether something was influenced more by Brutalism vs Modernism vs Minimalism?

Take the Guggenheim. It was not well received when first revealed, but is now considered a prime example of Modernism, and even Brutalism, though I expect many everyday people would be still divided on whether it's beautiful or not.

Beauty is subjective and multidimensional, so when you say " utilitarianism at the expense of beauty", what I hear is "utilitarianism at the expense of a particular aesthetic of my preference."

An example that many people would be familiar with is IKEA. Yes, some people do find the Modernism of IKEA to be sad or lifeless, but others find pleasure in the simplicity and clever functionality.

I haven't even discussed how cultural and historical contexts influence these perceptions, and how that will differ depending on the audience. I think this plays a significant role in coloring our judgments of Brutalism.

Anyway, my point is just that it's not so simple, people define and find beauty in many different ways.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by vidarh on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:08AM (#24303500)
Brutalism became popular because it was cheaper and had gained popularity in the West.

Stalin rejected brutalism firmly. Brutalism first gained traction in the Eastern block after it had gained popularity in the West.

He rejected the austerity, and he rejected examples of it such as proposed by Le Corbusier twice: both when Le Corbusier proposed an austere Palace of the Soviets, and secondly when Le Corbusier wanted to raze large parts of Moscow for a redesign along similar principles as what Brasilia adopted.

The austerity in Soviet design came under Khruschev as a cost-cutting measure to increase the housing stock, primarily, and while you certainly find more monumental buildings built in a brutalist style, that was the same thing: It was an end to the excesses of Stalinist architecture in favour of signaling a focus on saving money, and an actually desperate need to cut costs.

You're right that brutalism was seen as progressive, but initially that was the case in the west.

Le Corbusier actually accused Stalin of betraying the revolution when his proposals were rejected - he saw his proposals as revolutionary, but Stalin wanted a much more traditional style.

Stalinist architecture is anchored in the French Empire style, which you also find echoes of in parts of the US Federal style [1]. See e.g. Moscow State University as a prime example [2]. It has columns, and all kinds of architectural flourishes that you expect on more monumental Empire or Federal style buildings, and no sign of brutalism.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_architecture#/media/Fi...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinist_architecture#/media/...

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by gtpedrosa on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:54PM (#24286552)
Benjamim Moser wrote a whole book no the matter, called "Autoimperialismo". It litterally goes on how Brasilia's architecture is designed to convey the superiority of the state over the people. In fact there is no space for people. No sidewalks. Nothing is "reachable" by a pedestrian. And yet, it is the seat of the three powers.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by Joker_vD on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:15PM (#24288378)
It's quite ironic since Brutalism emerged during the 1950s in Great Britain. Not in the USSR. The Wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture has 9 pictures in the main body of the article and 17 in the Gallery section, and none of them are from the USSR.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by shuntress on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:54PM (#24287737)
>My issue with Brutalism is that it seems to evoke a sense of helplessness of the individual against the sheer size of the State

I would not attribute that specifically to Brutalism.

I tend to find that style more likely to evoke a sense of modesty. The lack of ornamental or ostentatious features tends to make Brutalist designs feel, to me, more egalitarian.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by airstrike on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:48PM (#24288192)
It's an interesting take. From my perspective, however, what you call egalitarian I call an oppression of individual expression.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by heavenlyblue on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:43PM (#24301146)
You could also call red colour white but the books on history will continue calling it white.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by puranjay on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:10PM (#24286716)
I see brutalism as a response to WW2. If your civilization had just gone through the worst war in history, you'd feel a lot more comfortable in a fortress-like building than in a glass skyscraper.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by Nasrudith on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:26PM (#24286880)
That would be an ironically counterproductive response given that said war proved fixed fortresses damn near useless. The Magniot Line became synonymous with useless security theater by Blitzkrieg fortifications were proven pretty useless as they decide to attack someplace else with mobile forces, they fail to provide significant time and logistics and medicine protect against attrition of the sieges of old.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by fatbird on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:10PM (#24287303)
The problem wasn't the Maginot Line, it was the assumption that the modern mobile forces that the French understood were coming, wouldn't be able to pass through the Ardennes. It's not that the French didn't foresee bypassing the line, it's that they mistakenly though it couldn't be bypassed. This wasn't unreasonable, either: The German forces slipped through along a single road unopposed. Even a token French force could have blocked them long enough to bottle them up and destroy them there. What the French were blind to was the gamble the Germans were willing to take.

Where German forces tried to pierce the Maginot Line, they were crushed. It worked exactly as designed. As usual, the lesson that History tends to recall is incorrect.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by fatbird on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:56PM (#24307137)
I was curious, after writing this, how accurate my take was, so I did a bit more reading on it. Short version, accurate overall, but the more detailed story is much more interesting.

First, in part, the intention of the Maginot line was to make the Germans go through Belgium. French planners assumed their German counterparts were smart enough not to attempt a direct assault on the line, and felt that a maneuver battle in Belgium was safe for them in terms of stopping the Germans there, after which they could settle into stable lines or possible attack through the Maginot Line.

It wasn't literally a single road through the Ardennes, but the French did assume it was impassable and only weakly defended it; the Germans did gamble on attacking through the Ardennes and succeeded, flanking the French and British, forcing the evacuation at Dunkirk and permanently breaking the French lines.

A few minor or weakly held forts in the Maginot Line were taken at the northern end, but none of the major forts were taken, the Italian invasion was stopped at the Line, and the Line was becoming the main point of resistance where French forces would hold out; German attacks against the main forts failed utterly. The defense of the Line was ended by the surrender of France.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by Joker_vD on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:22PM (#24288435)
They're still pretty durable. Germans, for example, build 8 huge concrete towers for AA defense, and those things were so damn durable that Soviets couldn't destroy them even with sustained artillery fire, nevermind the RAF bombers. Those things also served as air raid shelters, and indeed, were the safest places during the siege of Berlin (they were also the last places to surrender).

So, they were only mostly useless, and there's a big difference between mostly useless and all useless.

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by airstrike on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:15PM (#24286766)
I see your point, but that's a false dichotomy. Brutalism isn't the only alternative to glass buildings.

https://trip101.com/article/famous-buildings-in-vienna

Most of these look pretty safe to me and objectively prettier than cubes of exposed concrete

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by walrus01 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:20PM (#24285496)
Having seen both Brasilia and Islamabad, two contemporary master planned cities, I prefer the latter. Islamabad is just chaotic enough and weird enough, and every sector is unique... G9 is not like F7 and so on.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by k__ on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:21PM (#24288851)
I once heard there are no street names in Japan, they would just number the buildings consecutively as they were built.
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:03PM (#24289140)
Japan has an IPv4-like block system: a typical address is Prefecture City District 1-2-3-45, with 1-2-3 representing increasingly small divisions and the (optional) 4th element representing the apartment number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by monadic2 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:06PM (#24287263)
FWIW brutalism was quite popular here in the US too.

I think the design and living considerations of these structures outstrip American development in virtually every regard: https://designyoutrust.com/2018/01/bublik-circular-apartment...

Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:24AM (#24293422)
Why not? Imagine those addresses belonged to Logan V and Caprica VI :-)
Re:Melancholy of obsolete futures: on Soviet Brutalism by anthk on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:41PM (#24288579)
Spain had that too. And half of Europe.