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Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by londons_explore on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#24283731)
> I understand regulations around keeping homes safe, drainage, and fire safety,

Even these, IMO, are government overreach. Instead the government should require you have insurance to pay damages to third parties incase a fire/collapse/flood happens caused by your property. Then leave it up to the insurance company to decide what standards will lower your premium.

One insurance company might decide "look at Switzerland - they have very safe houses. Build everything to Swiss regulations, and we'll give you a 90% discount on the insurance price".

Over time, safety and environmental standards, as well as costs to meet them, will get much better much quicker than current layers of government bureaucracy.

The insurance should also cover for things like environmental spills on your land, the cost of pulling the building down and making the site nature again if the insurance is ever not renewed, etc.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by ogre_codes on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:11PM (#24283850)
If my home fire causes my neighbor's house to burn down and kills his kids, the damage is beyond calculation. If everyone on my block has shitty fire prone houses built to the edge of their property line with no exits, we have a city-wide disaster. This has happened many times all over the country before building codes.

> Instead the government should require you have insurance to pay damages to third parties incase a fire/collapse/flood happens caused by your property.

I don't want any F*ing insurance requirements.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by clairity on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:49PM (#24284296)
yup, passing that power on to insurance companies is just a different bureaucracy doing similar things, solving nothing more in the process. all parties together and separately need to be involved and invested in maintaining reasonably safe environments, not just an arms-length bureaucracy.

our failure is in trying to pawn off all responsibility to remote agencies and institutions, raher than the parts best-suited for them (bureaucracies are reasonably good at following rules and doing the same thing over and over), and accepting that we can't each absolve ourselves from some of that responsibility.

we want some best-suited regulation, the minimum needed to achieve reasonable safety, and no less, but also no more. regulation isn't good for every tiny tail risk we can imagine, as we see with the housing crisis (in major cities).

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:50PM (#24285104)
> is just a different bureaucracy doing similar things,

A key difference in this bureaucracy is their speed of change. Companies can react rapidly to new technology, new scenarios, and they do so on an economic model.

Gov'ts move slowly and lag technology or current events, they do so on a popularity/political power model.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by anigbrowl on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:00PM (#24285228)
True, but then companies are only accountable to their shareholders in many cases, and spend money on lobbyists to keep things that way. Economic models can vary widely depending on whether they're based around mutuality or extraction of rents.
Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:43PM (#24285780)
> mutuality or extraction of rents.

bigger governments create more rent opportunities.

https://www.libertarianism.org/blog/introduction-rent-seekin...

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by TeaDrunk on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#24285292)
> A key difference in this bureaucracy is their speed of change. Companies can react rapidly to new technology, new scenarios, and they do so on an economic model.

Additionally- companies can react intentionally slowly to squander and choke new technologies and scenarios, also doing so on an economic model.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:27PM (#24285589)
But companies have competitors. If one insurance company requires an unnecessarily burdensome design (or charges unreasonable premiums without it) while another allows a more efficient design which is equally safe, customers will prefer the latter and the former will adapt or lose business.

If the government requires an unnecessarily burdensome design, you're screwed.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:40PM (#24285744)
> squander and choke new technologies and scenarios, also doing so on an economic model.

If they do so then said technologies were not real opportunities. If they're opportunities then competitors will generate more value and/or less cost.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by curiousllama on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:56PM (#24284375)
Well said - I love the mix of reasoned historical argument and "get off my lawn!"
Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by Pfhreak on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:16PM (#24283901)
Your idea doesn't seem to be thought through -- who ensures the insurance companies are solvent enough to pay out? How do you deal with irreversible damage? Why invest a ton of energy into figuring out the right risk calculations for shoddy work rather than say, "This passes the threshold of really unsafe, don't do it". It's so much simpler, cheaper, and easier to understand to just draw a few lines in the sand.

No amount of compensation can bring someone back if they've been lost to a fire, a deck collapse, a sinkhole, an electrical issue, etc.

The use of lead paint causes irreversible damage to nervous tissue, and lead contamination can lie undetected in soils for years after a property removes all the lead from the buildings.

Why would we want to invest a massive amount of effort into figuring out, e.g., the actual insurance risk of poorly built structures rather than saying, "No, you cannot use highly flammable plastic cladding on your highrise."

Especially if insurance companies can go bankrupt or refuse to pay out. How do victims get made well if the insurance company refuses to pay on some technicality? The last thing I want to deal with is more insurance companies.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by londons_explore on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:23PM (#24283987)
> Why would we want to invest a massive amount of effort into figuring out, e.g., the actual insurance risk of poorly built structures rather than saying, "No, you cannot use highly flammable plastic cladding on your highrise."

Wouldn't the insurance company say the same thing? Or rather they would say "we won't insure that thing". Which amounts to "You cannot build that thing if insurance is a requirement".

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by Pfhreak on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:38PM (#24284155)
So now you have a widely distributed system of insurers to deal with making the rules, rather than people I've elected to represent my interests? (Even if said elections don't always go my way.)

Who are those insurers beholden to, what are their incentives to represent the consumer in any way?

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by mikem170 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:33PM (#24284871)
I don't mean to imply that this invalidates your reasoning, but I thought it would be interesting to point out that Underwriters Laboratories was a private organization funded by insurance companies and did, and still does, a great job making electrical systems safer.

Some people would like to see more things like that.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:33PM (#24285669)
> Who are those insurers beholden to, what are their incentives to represent the consumer in any way?

Their incentives to represent the consumer are rooted in the fact that the consumer can switch to another insurance company. Which means that if one has overly strict requirements without charging correspondingly lower premiums, nobody will use them. Then you get the incentives you want: People prefer both lax requirements and low premiums and the insurance companies have the incentive to find a better balance than competing insurance companies.

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by Pfhreak on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:45PM (#24288173)
> Their incentives to represent the consumer are rooted in the fact that the consumer can switch to another insurance company.

Two follow ups:

1) Isn't this inefficient? E.g. insurance is most efficient the larger the pool is. Doesn't this system introduce inefficiencies (and therefore risk) into the market?

2) Do you feel like there are adequate tools to choose between different insurers today, and do you expect that everyone who owns or improves property should be reasonably expected to make an informed decision about which insurance company to go with? It's hard enough now to insure my car, let alone all the individual decisions that go into building a house. (From materials to design decisions to occupancy rates to the health of the occupants, etc.)

Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by alextheparrot on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:50PM (#24285103)
The idea that we need a free-market indirection to accomplish what government regulations do just doesn’t make sense to me. If we want fewer homes to flood, we should build homes and communities to resist flooding, instead of giving money to a third-party that takes the risk from us. The problem is the risk, not who holds it.
Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by plasticchris on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:06PM (#24283778)
If you are in a flood plain they do. I assume it's the same for the others. But drainage is really more about dealing with density. In the town/city poor drainage on my lot could flood my neighbors house. In the country there's enough space it's not an issue.
Re:Portland passes low-density zoning reform by abfan1127 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:11PM (#24283853)
flood plains are usually more to do with elevations. If all of my home's runoff goes to my neighbor, its just runoff now. If their home doesn't have drainage (proper grade, etc), then its getting flooded regardless of your drainage. Your drainage may make it worse, but the reality is that the damage is already done. This may apply for more recent builds rather than homes 50-60yrs old.