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Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:55AM (#24210996)
Do you think stalkers and murderers are commonly using this data? It sounds like they passed a law to prevent this type of issue from happening again.

This data doesn't seem that sensitive or difficult to obtain via other methods depending on the exact situation. You should check out the system that the repo industry uses to track vehicle location via license plate scanning.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by rmrfstar on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:22AM (#24211298)
Read the Ebay stalking indictment. They were the B team with extremely limited operational capability. Now imagine they had any of the following, which are all for sale:

* Real-time location from your cell provider

* Real-time AirBnB booking

* Real-time purchases from credit card companies

* Real-time browsing records from your mobile ISP, home ISP, and behavioral advertising networks

* Your complete prescription history from your pharmacy

This is truly the stuff of nightmares. Part of the problem with government data sales is that it normalizes morally abhorrent practices that would not have been tolerated just a few years ago.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:48AM (#24211670)
Yep, and the transaction flows the other way too. The government also buys data from databrokers who get it from companies like Facebook, Google, and the data you mentioned.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by rmrfstar on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:59AM (#24211834)
"In a subtle and deadly way, the dictator can dirty enough people up to make them all complicit in his rule, or I suppose her rule". C. Hitchens (2005). "Why Orwell Matters"
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by dikaio on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:41PM (#24213354)
Are we talking about China or United States?
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by rbecker on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:07AM (#24211109)
> This data doesn't seem that sensitive or difficult to obtain via other methods depending on the exact situation.

A government should not be in the business of betraying its citizens to private parties, even if those parties have other means to accomplish their goals. Should I expect them to start selling school records and police interactions next?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:21AM (#24211281)
They already make it available.

The school data is "anonymized" but like most anonymized data, it is possible in some cases to trace it back to individuals. They also publish some types of information.

The police interaction records can be public record depending on the type of interaction/document. Departments using unencrypted comms broadcast your information when they call in your stop, which could be heard by anyone with a scanner.

Also, how do you see this as a betrayal? It doesn't violate any laws nor any agreement with the individual.

I would like to see better privacy laws. What they did is not shocking, not a betrayal, and not illegal. It would be nice if it was.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by zamfi on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:21AM (#24211274)
I don’t know about commonly, but the law mentioned in the article you cite carved out an exception for private investigators, so...

I’m not excited about license plate tracking either, but I have different expectations of the data I leak by going about town, compared with the complete personal information that I must give to a state agency (on top of paying them, on top of them receiving state funding) to have the privilege of going (driving, I guess) about town.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:36AM (#24211519)
The article has a clear bias towards vilifying the release of the data and misleads you with their use of the word "exception". They are not truly excepted from the law, rather they are on a list of approved actors/purposes. This section on PIs dictates that they can only access this information for DPPA approved reasons, and providing the location of a person without it being related to one of the approves uses (like that stalker) is illegal, so...

They use machine learning with your license plate data so that they can predict where your home address, where you work, home of people you associate with, etc.

What expectations do you have with the DMV? They didn't break any laws or privacy policies. Was it just an assumption you made?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:53AM (#24211751)
Why is this downvoted?
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by AdrianB1 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:08PM (#24211969)
Being allowed by the law to do something bad does not make it right, it just shows the law is bad.

Selling private data is bad, no matter how legal it is, in most of the world. See GDPR as an example.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:15PM (#24212079)
Your argument assumes that selling data is bad. What supports your position?

Edit: in the context of the CA DMV releasing data under the DPPA law.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:29PM (#24212282)
Data is personal property that is being handled without consent and without regard for social problems. There needs to be a hard stop put towards those practices.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:46PM (#24212517)
In general I would agree, but how does that apply to the to the scenario we are discussing which is the CA DMV under the DPPA?
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:31PM (#24213210)
These data were collected to ensure road safety. Anything unrelated to road safety is taboo. No enforcement of immigration, no debt collection, no enabling of stalking, especially no aggregation with other data sources.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:14PM (#24213864)
Actually that's only part of their intended use. The data is also used to collect tax (registration) and maintain records of ownership (titling).

Many states also use this information to register, or solicit the individual to register, to vote. Law enforcement also uses this data for enforcing all manners of law when they look up a person to question or cite, not just immigration. Since drivers' licenses are used for identification, you can see that they are used on many government forms such as tax returns or background checks. Along these lines, the only way to ensure the government will not use your data would be to prevent the government from collecting and storing it (rough paraphrase from Snowden). But if you prevent the collection of the basic data referenced in the article, then how do you provide the same benefits to society that the systems do today?

The issues you have seem not to be about the state releasing records but rather with how the government uses the data. The basic information referenced in the article is also available in other country's systems to many of the same organizations authorized under the DPPA. Given the system is also about titling and registration, the access by debt collectors would be warranted, especially if it is dealing with a vehicle. How exactly is this system enabling stalking given the protections of the DPPA?

Do you have any examples of countries that don't aggregate data for government use and don't allow PIs to search many kinds of official documents? What system do you see that would replace the current one and maintain all the societal benefits but somehow increase privacy?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by HarryHirsch on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @05:26PM (#24216773)
Somehow we fell down a slippery slope where a debt collector got access to unrelated DMV data. This is unacceptable, the alternative is to resist expanding scope.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:26PM (#24218040)
It is acceptable, that's why the law protecting DMV data categorically allows it, indicating that society approves of that use.

It wasn't a slippery slope - the opposite in fact. The records were practically wide open and the DPPA set the limits on who can access it and for what reasons.

I'd appreciate a real response to my prior comment. Simply stating your opinion that an action is unacceptable does not make for productive discourse.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by hoorayimhelping on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:42PM (#24212465)
The concept itself. It is being sold without my express consent. I'm being given no share of the profit that someone else is making from my information.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:08PM (#24212819)
You have implied consent because as an informed citizen you know that the law allows this data to be used in the ways defined under the law.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by AdrianB1 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:23PM (#24214983)
You have no choice, that does not mean you consent. No driver license or you give the data, it's closer to gunpoint coercion than to free choice.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:39PM (#24215224)
Actually, your choice is a combination of getting the license and voting. The DPPA defined who could have access and for what purposes. States can also restrict it further. The DPPA and state laws are created by the officials that citizens elect, and as part of being a citizen we consent to being governed by those laws. If this sort paradigm is a problem, then there are many other issues in out society that would need to be changed, such as TSA searches and taxes.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by esrauch on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:34PM (#24212342)
Why not have mandatory public webcams in everyone's homes?

Two reasons; privacy is axiomatically a human right (since it's an axiom you can unilaterally disagree, just as with any other human right), and caused harm arguments that the information is available in a way that can cause your physical harm (when you cannot escape a stalker, or a general class of invasive people if you're a celebrity or piss off qanon).

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:03PM (#24212749)
How does a caused harm argument apply to the scenario being discussed (the CA DMV under the DPPA law)?

That's a very generalized axiom that doesn't even define what would be accepted by a society as falling under the protection of privacy. so we could accept it as true and discuss it's limitations and scope, but the axiom itself does not address whether the 'selling' of data under the DPPA is wrong. For example, is everything protected under privacy? Can I claim that my salary should be private from the government so that I don't have to pay taxes?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by esrauch on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:27PM (#24213141)
I was primarily responding to "what's the harm in selling data?" generally. I don't know about DPPA specifically but it's hard for me to imagine the DMV selling data to a broad subset of private companies in a way that is notably different than just making it public (eg, I know that companies have done soft pulls of my credit report even while I had a freeze, so it actually seems like the info in my credit report is nearly-public despite protections similar to DPPA).
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:38PM (#24214285)
The difference between the current structure and making it fully public is that the current law regulates what the data can be used for and who could access it. So only companies in specific industries or PIs would be able to access it and only for authorized use cases. That cuts out a very large portion of the public and has basically eliminated (couldn't find any examples nor people on here provide any) the abuse that was taking place before, like targeting abortion providers. Any misuse of the info results in loss of access and possibly other actions, like losing your PI license.

I see what you mean about the credit data access. My suspicion is that the permission to do that is hidden in the fine print of many agreements. They do similar stuff with credit cards where they will periodically check your card to see if it is valid, like for EZ-Pass. Car insurance does the same sort of thing. When you sign up, you give them permission to access your driving records, ownership info etc. That's how they can do that spooky stuff like list what cars you own without even needing to put in the VIN yourself (the industry also aggregates the data that any insurance provider has on a driver, but that much more detailed and personal).

The only way to truly end the privacy concerns around the DMV data would be to eliminate the need for the data to be collected and distributed. The government wont stop collection because they use that data in all sorts of systems for stuff like collecting fees/taxes and validating identities addresses. Data distribution could be partially reduced by making insurance companies ignore that type of data in their models. Many states would not go for this because they work with the companies to verify insurance information around mamdatory insurance laws. Plus, as long as cars are financed the banks and debt collectors need some way to track who is registering their asset and where.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by travisoneill1 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:34AM (#24211492)
> This data doesn't seem that sensitive or difficult to obtain via other methods

So it's ok because there's more than one there's more than one way to get the data?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:51AM (#24211727)
It's ok because there is no law or policies preventing it. The information is not that sensitive and is only provided to the parties authorized under the law and only for the purposes authorized under the law.

I would like to see privacy laws overall change, but I don't see any issue with the DPPA law.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by liability on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:15AM (#24211207)
Does it have to be common for it to be a problem? Since they shouldn't be doing it in the first place, if even one person gets stalked using this data that's one too many.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:39AM (#24211552)
That occurred before the law was implemented. The law put restrictions on who could access the information and for what purposes. That's why I'm asking if it is still a problem.

Also, using the 'one is too many' argument is not valid. We could apply that to outlaw cars, electricity, or any other thing that is accepted as useful but also kills people. The DPPA law allows debt collectors, repo men, and other neccessary societal systems to function while providing protection for the data. If there have been only a handful of incidents over the years, then I think it would still be a net gain for society. If there is a better way to regulate the data and still allow the systems in society to function, that would be great to explore, but I don't see any obvious improvements.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by liability on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:01PM (#24211859)
> The DPPA law allows debt collectors, repo men, and other neccessary societal systems to function

You're wrong. They can function just fine without data from the DVM. Therefore, anybody being harmed by the sale of this data is one too many because there is nothing to offset this harm. Some harm is acceptable when it's offset by something else, like the utility of cars. That is not the case here.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:07PM (#24211961)
How can they function without it? If you have a PI serve a subpeona, they need to know the address.

Also, where is your evidence that someone has be hurt?

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by liability on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:28PM (#24212272)
> How can they function without it?

Work a little bit harder doing some old fashioned detective work instead of just paying the DMV for their records? It's a bit more work for them but I don't give a damn. Your suggestion that they'd be up shit creek without the DMV is just flat wrong.

Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:12PM (#24212880)
Even for investigations concerning vehicle ownership or theft? The DMV is the golden copy record holder for this information. It seems you have no background in this line of work.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by lawnchair_larry on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:31PM (#24212301)
Most other similar societies around the world do not allow this, yet PIs and process servers still exist.
Re:California DMV Is Selling Drivers' Data to Private Invest... by giantg2 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:13PM (#24212895)
And how do they get the information? I would bet it's from the government...