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Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:03PM (#24203663)
>You see Mars is, a priori, just as likely a place for life to start as Earth.

Asserted without evidence, and considerable waving of hands detected.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by danudey on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:24PM (#24203901)
"a priori" means "from theoretical deduction rather than evidence or experience", so yes, that's entirely the point of that sentence.

What the author is saying is "theoretically, life could have started on Mars just as easily as it did here".

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:32PM (#24204007)
The theories we have about how life started on Earth tend to disfavor Mars as a similar starting point, based on what we currently know about Mars.

I think the author was trying to say "I mean, look, Earth and Mars are not that different, and even though we don't have any current evidence for the appropriate chemical conditions on Mars, I don't see why it couldn't have been where life started instead of Earth, because ... well, just because they're sort of similar, kind of. Oh, and next to each other."

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by davedx on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:06AM (#24209122)
Citation needed.

There's plenty of evidence Mars once had much more surface water than it does today. IIRC liquid water is one of the primary preconditions for the evolution of Earth-like life.

What about Mars disfavoured it?

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by brudgers on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @08:09PM (#24205808)
based on what we currently know

In two hundred years, conclusions drawn from what we currently know will be as out of date as conclusions from two hundred years ago are today. Or to put it another way, things known to the best of our knowledge are both as good as we can do and probably wrong because one of the things we know is that historically most of what people know at any given time turns out to be wrong at any given time.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:13PM (#24206180)
Absolutely correct. But this article was written now, and makes a claim that is totally unsupported by anything we know now.

I'm entirely down for our descendants in 200 years laughing at our scientific parochiality, just like we often get to do at our double-century antecedents. But that doesn't justify writing right now that Mars and Earth have a priori likelihoods of being the origin of life in the solar system.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:06PM (#24204345)
Those theories don't have much in the way of evidence that would compel anyone to believe them, though. So citing them isn't much of an argument.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by tuatoru on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:11PM (#24205433)
"theoretically, life could have started on Mars just as easily as it did here"

Yes, leaving aside the 20% lower luminosity of the sun[1] a few billion years ago (when Mars had a reasonable atmosphere) putting Mars outside the habitable zone, and Mars's lack of plate tectonics and a protective magnetic field: -

Life certainly could have evolved on Mars. I expect that one day prion-like or viroid-ish molecules may well be found. But so what?

It's one or two billion years from there to a bacterium, let alone a lost civilisation. And Mars did not have the time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by davedx on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:11AM (#24209149)
Your linked article actually says there is evidence Mars was warmer and wetter in the past. How then was it "outside the habitable zone"? And what proof do you have that life 4B years ago needed to be in what we define now as a habitable zone, needed a magnetic field, and needed active plate tectonics to arise? These are exactly the kinds of assumptions the article is challenging.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by tuatoru on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:45PM (#24218215)
Life didn't need those things to arise; that's just a matter of the right chemistry and physics being available for a relatively short period of time.

But it would seem to need them for sustained evolution to be possible. So as I said, I'd expect lifeforms at the complexity level of viroids, but not at the level of eukaryotes.

Evolution needs time, lots of time in which conditions don't change too much. (Chemistry that works in dilute solution at 300K doesn't work well at 200K or 500K.) It also needs populations to be able to spread to new areas.

Without a magnetic field, Mars's atmosphere got stripped off. No more liquid water, no more areographical distribution, so no more evolution.

Plate tectonics is needed to ensure that nutrient chemicals don't get locked up permanently in sedimentary rock.

As for the habitable zone, life as we know it needs liquid water on the surface. Mars may have briefly been habitable, but not for long enough.

To be a challenge, the article needs to provide plausible alternative evolutionary pathways that get us eukaryotes without needing these things (time, liquid water, chemical recirculation, limited variability in physcal conditions). It doesn't do that. It's just spitballing.

If early Mars was OK for life to begin, then so was early Earth. We don't need any interplanetary travel.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by davedx on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:00AM (#24221623)
Thanks for the detailed explanation, great points. I really wonder how the volume of liquid water on Mars has changed over the aeons. Considering there is still liquid water today, I would still be cautious about claiming "no more evolution on Mars".

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-confirms-evidence-th...

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by Barrin92 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:47PM (#24205677)
What point is there in making a theoretical deduction about an empirical issue?

Yes, life could have 'theoretically' started anywhere where life by definition is possible. Fine, but that's a tautology, and in contrast to what the author seems to believe actually not scientific and thus deserves to be rejected.

If we're talking about scientific statements then show me life actually existing somewhere that isn't earth and then we can make some grounded theories

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:00AM (#24207270)
I suppose if your theory was that god created life that would definitely make Mars just as likely a starting place, or if the theory is that life actually came from some meteorite impact, but most theories for life's origins do not seem to favor Mars.

I mean when you say theoretically and then make a big not necessarily obvious statement you should actually point out which theory you're using.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by quantdev on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:06PM (#24203704)
We have no good evidence or accepted model for how life started, besides "randomness" in a primordial soup, which is as good as "no idea". As such, it seems like a reasonable assumption to explore.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by notahacker on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:57PM (#24205330)
The Mars panspermia theory mentioned in the original article simply moves the "randomness" to a primordial soup 83 million km away during the same time frame, and adds the exceptionally strong claim that Mars was so much more conducive to spontaneous formation of organisms capable of surviving on earth that it is more probable life emerged there and made an unexplained interplanetary journey than it emerged on the planet it currently [exclusively] lives on.

Considering the best evidence of Mars being conducive to earthly life formation is the likelihood of it more closely resembling earth's conditions in the past, it doesn't seem like the sort of claim likely to resolve issues with earthly primordial soup hypotheses...

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by ivraatiems on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:08PM (#24203724)
That's untrue. See here https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-did-life-begi....

An "Earthlike" planet is required. Mars may have qualified at one point, but doesn't now.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by blaser-waffle on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:24PM (#24203902)
An earthlike planet is require for earthlike life.

It is fallacious to assume other life couldn't be different -- we can't prove or disprove that. Likewise, we still don't know exactly how life started here; we simply have a few good theories.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:08PM (#24204363)
I don't think we have "good" theories about how life started here. In particular, the complexity gap from abiotic chemicals to the smallest known organism capable of independent reproduction (about 4 billion atoms!) is extremely large, and no theory has done more than handwave about how that gap is to be crossed.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by clairity on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:01PM (#24204284)
this is what has always annoyed me about basically every space movie ever made. even life a star away, let alone another galaxy away, is likely to be startlingly different from the oxygen-absorbing, ossified calcium-braced, protein-enriched, atp-powered water blobs with heads, legs, and feet we have on earth. and that's just the the biochemical stuff we're familiar with.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:10PM (#24204385)
i think in the end it's going to come down to what you really consider "life" to be.

there is an implicit part of our definition that includes timescales and size, and this puts some limits on the type of chemistry that can be involved in order to qualify.

if you open up the definition to be things that work on totally different timescales and sizes than we consider, then i think its fair to say that the chemistry doesn't need to be similar at all.

but for things that form blobs of life on the rough range of scales found on earth, and that "do stuff" in the range of timescales that we see on earth, there are not too many choices. silicon often gets touted as an alternative because of its ability to form branched structures. do you know of any other ideas?

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by clairity on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:18PM (#24205007)
sure, chemistry has a somewhat limited palette to work with, but life happens in the gap between potential and kinetic, between hot and cold, between proton and electron. that's a tiny space but a huge gap.

dna is mostly a 4-note tune, and computers, the potential precursor to artificial life, 2. i'm sure something as vast as the universe can come up with a little more variation than skin type in those tiny little gaps.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:49PM (#24205268)
I don't believe that we'd recognize computer-ish artificial life as life in the sense that we're discussing here.

ps. I have my Artificial Life III conference t-shirt from 1994 :)

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by gus_massa on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:32PM (#24205134)
> atp-powered

I think GTP-powered file is possible, even the glucose metabolism produce one GTP (and many ATP). (Perhaps I'm missing something, Chemistry is not my main specialty). Perhaps it is even possible to have NADH-powered life, but it is more different so it may be impossible.

> ossified calcium-braced

Diatoms use silica, insects have a protein exoskeleton, and octopus are weird.

> oxygen-absorbing, [...] protein-enriched, [...] water blobs

I guess these three are safe bets (with a little different selection of amino acids).

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by madhadron on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:29PM (#24205552)
Oxygen absorbing isn't necessary, of course. Life on earth got along without it for a while until those darned cyanobacteria starting poisoning everyone else.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by hansbo on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:14AM (#24207964)
Eukaryote life did not appear until after the Oxygen Catastrophe though.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by madhadron on Sunday August 23, 2020 @09:22PM (#24256785)
That's true, but how much earlier might it have occurred if the oxygen catastrophe had not occurred and caused a mass extinction? Hard to say...
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by jabirali on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:38PM (#24204656)
Due to convergent evolution [1], I'm not sure life that originated on an Earth-like planet would look completely different from Earth life, at least on a macroscopic level.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by clairity on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:20PM (#24205024)
that's predicated on the same conditions as life on earth. a universe can surely come up with some more variety.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by jabirali on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:25AM (#24209260)
My point is that I think convergent evolution would be likely to produce “water blobs with heads, legs, and feet” on other Earth-like planets, i.e. planets with lots of liquid water and lots of solid land.

If you’re thinking of planets that are not similar to Earth, of course all bets are off.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:09PM (#24204371)
What bothers me about every space movie made is that all those planets have life on them (or, worse, intelligent life). Fermi says hi.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by PoachedSausage on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:26PM (#24204535)
Fermi can blast out "Hi" with a 100GW of power and he is unlikely to be heard in Andromeda, which for all we know could be teeming with life and host to something like an Iain Banks Culture series space opera.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @06:00PM (#24204860)
We know that fewer than about 1 in 100,000 galaxies has a Kardashev Type III civilization. So the Fermi argument has some bite even at cosmological distances.

But anyway, this was about SF movies where our heroes visit Arglebarg IV and have adventures with the natives. It's like Victorian adventure stories transplanted into space without bothering to think things through. Let's kill our dysfunctional tropes.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by nextaccountic on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @06:17AM (#24208859)
> We know that fewer than about 1 in 100,000 galaxies has a Kardashev Type III civilization.

But we.. don't? We just don't have anything to compare to.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @08:04AM (#24209549)
A K3 civilization is one that has diverted a significant fraction of the stellar output of a galaxy to its own uses. They have to dump their waste heat somehow, and that's visible in the far to mid infrared. So we can compare the IR emission of galaxies to look for oddballs with a lot of IR.

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2015/04/16/g-hat-searching-f...

“Our results mean that, out of the 100,000 galaxies that WISE could see in sufficient detail, none of them is widely populated by an alien civilization using most of the starlight in its galaxy for its own purposes. That’s interesting because these galaxies are billions of years old, which should have been plenty of time for them to have been filled with alien civilizations, if they exist. Either they don’t exist, or they don’t yet use enough energy for us to recognize them.”

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:40AM (#24211563)
When we assume K3 capabilities, why don't we assume they dump their waste emissions away into something like (artificial even?) black holes? Maybe they are shy and afraid of the intergalactic "Dark Forest"? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest )
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by pfdietz on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:33PM (#24212336)
The basic problem with that idea is black holes are too small. The amount of low temperature radiation that one could dump into them would be insufficient.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by jabirali on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @08:13AM (#24209598)
I think the point is that if a large number of galaxies had Type III civilizations, we would notice, because the definition is that they use most of the available energy in their galaxy making the galaxy radiate more infrared than visible light. But that doesn’t mean life isn’t common, it may just mean that a Type III civilization is either physically impossible or very unlikely.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by danudey on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:27PM (#24203935)
That's also discussed in the article. The author states that Mars may have qualified before Earth did.

Edit: Also, the article you linked specifically states "Scientists debate a range of ideas about how life on earth began", undermining your first point.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by simiones on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @08:49AM (#24209832)
I think the opposite conclusion is true: we know nothing about how life gets started, we know life exists on Earth, we have seen no evidence of life anywhere else, so the reasonable assumption is that life started on Earth.

One thing we know (almost) for sure is that no new forms of life have emerged on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. So we should expect that the conditions required are quite special indeed, or the event is extraordinarily unlikely. As such, it is silly to assume that any other planet is "similar to Earth" in the ways that matter for life appearing based on simplistic observations (temperature, distance from the sun, existence of the most basic required elements).

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:28AM (#24210705)
Do plants count? Then I have cacti for you, which are thought to be only a few dozen million years old.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by simiones on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @11:10AM (#24211146)
I am referring to abiogenesis - life arising from non-life matter. Cacti have not appeared out of simple chemicals, they have evolved from other plant-based lifeforms (in fact, there is no "first cactus").

My point is that, despite the huge abundance of life on Earth today, it is all based on a very old abiogenesis event, with all indications that it was more or less a singular event.

All life on earth seems to be part of the same philogenetic tree, so it seems that life appeared once and then kept evolving from that initial life-form. Of course, there is a good chance that there was some variety of initial organisms that either merged together in symbiotic relationships, such as mitochondria with the rest of the cell, or got out-competed by the one type of organism that we are all descended from. This still indicates that life arose in a single place and only over a relatively short amount of time.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:00PM (#24211847)
Hm. OK. thx.
Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by mvn9 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:15PM (#24203793)
>Martian surface temperatures vary from lows of about −143 °C (−225 °F) at the winter polar caps[14] to highs of up to 35 °C (95 °F) in equatorial summer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars

Had to look this up. Seems like there is the same temperature window available on Mars that is needed for life on earth.

Re:Lost Advanced Civilizations by dogma1138 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:56PM (#24204244)
That’s today without atmosphere, liquid water and with a solidified core I’m not sure were close to estimating when the core has solidified as far as I know we also have no method for dating anything on mars.

When mars was wet, geologically a GI d and still had an atmosphere the temperatures would’ve been much closer to earth today.