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Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by ChuckMcM on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:17PM (#24192247)
Adding food storage to countries where that capability doesn't exist is a huge multiplier in their agronomic efficiency. There is some excellent discussion of this in the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" which discusses how these forces shaped the changes in human civilizations.
Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by AlotOfReading on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:11PM (#24193824)
I'm a bit loathe to mention this, but it should be pointed out that GG&S has a really bad reputation among many academics as fatally flawed analysis [1,2,3,4,5,6]. It makes all sorts of methodological, factual, and theoretical errors that undermine the entire argument.

But rather than make anyone go through the rather verbose things I linked, a simple example demonstrates the point: The core of Diamond's argument is that geographical factors determined the course of world affairs between approx. 1600-1900. Not the hundreds of millennia before, nor at any point in the future, only those 300 years. That's a weird argument to make about factors that have essentially always existed and presumably always applied. Even if we accept everything uncritically, the result is a pretty terrible "grand theory" that can only justify things post-hoc.

[1] https://www.livinganthropologically.com/eric-wolf-europe-peo...

[2] https://louisproyect.org/2009/04/24/jim-blaut-on-jared-diamo...

[3] https://www.jstor.org/stable/3054276

[4] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/08/03/guns-germs-an...

[5] https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2vf565/myths_of... <--- Despite being reddit, it's actually credible and a good introduction to Restall's 7 myths

[6] https://doi.org/10.1080/10455752.2013.846490 <--- Despite being a published article, this infamous paper's commentary is on the same informal level as most of these.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by coeneedell on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:58PM (#24194182)
Just to jump on this: Guns Germs and Steel seems like it's not an isolated incident for Jared Diamond's less-than-ethical process. https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2009/04/22/new_guinea_...
Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:46PM (#24193153)
Some things that do not show up in Guns, germs and steel:

- Syphilis may have a new world origin.

- The most productive crop is the potato, a crop of new world origin.

- The Inca farmed guinea pigs. These are a very viable farm animal.

- The Mapuche did not have guns, germs or steel yet, they defeated the Spanish.

- The Inca could have defeated the Spanish. They were encountered after a civil war where the nobility was purged. The Inca nobility knew how to run the empire.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by triceratops on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:32PM (#24193532)
> Syphilis may have a new world origin.

Smallpox, measles, bubonic plague, whooping cough are all way scarier than syphilis.

> The most productive crop is the potato,

The thesis of Guns, Germs, and Steel was Europe's east-west orientation allowed varieties domesticated in one place to easily grow in another. If different varieties of potatoes grow differently at different latitudes (I don't know, I'm not an expert), then it doesn't really matter how productive a crop the potato is. You may also be basing this on more modern potato varieties.

> The Inca farmed guinea pigs.

Guinea pigs are pretty small. The Inca didn't have horses, only llamas. Horses were militarily very important. Look at how much trouble the Plains Indians gave the US government, relative to their numbers. They only acquired horses after Europeans came to the New World and adapted their culture and ways around them very rapidly.

> The Mapuche did not have guns, germs or steel yet, they defeated the Spanish.

After initially being defeated, acquiring guns, steel, and horses from the Spanish and then rebelling against them.[1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arauco_War#Campaigns_of_Caupol...

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by jcranmer on Monday August 17, 2020 @10:36PM (#24194718)
> The thesis of Guns, Germs, and Steel was Europe's east-west orientation allowed varieties domesticated in one place to easily grow in another.

It's worth noting that despite the east-west orientation of Eurasia, there is quite little evidence of technology and agriculture actually being shared between the Mediterranean and Chinese origins, especially if you restrict yourself to the traditional origin-of-civilization innovations such as agriculture itself, pottery, metallurgy. By contrast, the Americas show a great deal more transmission along its north-south axis, with maize (from Mesoamerica) almost completely supplanting native North American domesticants, pottery appearing to come from the Amazon rainforest, and metallurgy arriving from the Andes.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by riffraff on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:48AM (#24195367)
Didn't a lot of things from Asia come to the Mediterranean to become omnipresent things? E.g. oranges, lemons, rice.

Isn't wheat itself something that spread both ways from the middle East?

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @03:16AM (#24196058)
Wheat, barley, lentils, peas, chickpeas.

Goats, sheep, pig...

Most of those come from the fertile crescent.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by jcranmer on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:49AM (#24198499)
For all intents and purposes, I equate the Fertile Crescent with the Mediterranean world. The big divide I'm talking about is crossing from China across the variety of deserts to reach Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean.
Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by triceratops on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @03:26PM (#24203173)
> there is quite little evidence of technology and agriculture actually being shared between the Mediterranean and Chinese origins

You mean apart from (just off the top of my head) gunpowder, paper, the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, stirrups, and pasta/noodles?

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:41PM (#24194069)
> If different varieties of potatoes grow differently at different latitudes (I don't know, I'm not an expert), then it doesn't really matter how productive a crop the potato is.

The introduction of the potato reshaped Europe and boosted European population by 25%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xROmDsULcLE

> The Inca didn't have horses, only llamas. Horses were militarily very important.

The horse is a valuable animal given a favorable terrain. But with elevations such as the Andes, a horse is not as useful. And wheels are a similar story.

Horses were useless in the Battle of Ollantaytambo, where the Inca used terraces to their advantage, but proved very useful in the defense of Lima (a coastal city) against the forces of general Quizquiz.

> After initially being defeated, acquiring guns, steel, and horses from the Spanish and then rebelling against them.[1]

The Mapuche did not "acquire" guns or steel. They could not manufacture them, but they became aware of them and developed techniques against them.

They knew harquebuses were not waterproof, and if they would prefer to engage during rainy weather. They knew that trying to pierce through steel was ineffective, so they prefered to stun.

They also became aware of the usage of cattle and they frequently raided cattle and set structures on fire.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by throwaway894345 on Monday August 17, 2020 @10:34PM (#24194707)
> The introduction of the potato reshaped Europe and boosted European population by 25%.

I think you missed the parent’s explicit point or I missed your point. The parent wasn’t saying potatoes aren’t efficient; only that they didn’t spread widely throughout the new world due to geographic factors.

As for the rest of your post, I’m really not sure what point you’re making by focusing on the Inca. Specifically what about Diamond’s thesis are you refuting? Note that I’m not partial to “Guns, Germs, and Steel”; I just want to understand the criticism better.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by AlotOfReading on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:26PM (#24194954)
The GP simply made a mistake. Potatoes can't grow in hot equatorial climates and never made the jump to the north. Two more American crops are essentially as productive as potatoes and did spread widely before Europeans. Sweet potatoes were grown as far north as Mexico / the Gulf and Maize was growing from Canada down all the way through Argentina.
Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:53AM (#24195393)
Potatoes were not a panamerican crop, but they were grown in Spain and the British Isles as soon as they were introduced.

The Inca had a population of 10,000,000, and warehouses with surplus food that could sustain the empire for over 10 years.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by throwaway894345 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:08AM (#24196305)
I think this is consistent with Diamond’s thesis—the New World didn’t have “guns, germs, and steel” because important developments (like potato agriculture) remained localized. But again, it’s not clear to me if your goal is to criticize Diamond’s thesis or not.
Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by HugeAcumen on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:59PM (#24193290)
... Those seem like pretty tiny nitpicks in the context of the wider argument to me.

The central point of his book - that there was far more geographic luck involved in European dominance than is popularly understood - holds just fine with all those points you made.

Good points though.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by ChuckMcM on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:00PM (#24193296)
Okay. But I'm having a hard time connecting the dots between the way in which crop storage amplifies the agronomic output of a group, and the points you raise.

If you're just trying to point out that "Guns, Germs, and Steel" isn't an all inclusive guide to the rise of civilization, or that different people may have made different choices in their analysis, okay I get that too. Every book is just a single voice in the choir of a genre.

Is that what you're trying to say? That you didn't like the book?

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by jcranmer on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:24PM (#24194940)
The problem with Guns, Germs, and Steel is that it doesn't really comport with the evidence we've gained from archaeology and anthropology in the 20 years since it was written. Or even what was generally accepted within the field when it was written. And if you follow Jared Diamond's other books and commentary since the initial publication, he's made it quite clear that he is going to dismiss any evidence that doesn't comport with his theories rather than adjusting his theories to match evidence, especially as we come to realize that our interpretations of primary sources and physical evidence may have historically been biased and incorrect.

As a historical note, anthropology originally develops in the 18th and 19th centuries as a curiosity about how the great empires (especially Britain) came to be great, and was generally intertwined with a desire to justify the rule over, enslavement of, or even extermination of lesser peoples. The notion that Western Europeans were superior to everyone else was an unquestioned axiom. It's only in the mid-20th century that this inherent racism starts to squeeze out of the field academically, but in the popular culture, it tends to still remain--and books like Guns, Germs, and Steel work against the goal of removing the racism from our humanities.

As someone who is interested in Pre-Columbian Americas, I will attest that the the history is actually quite fascinating. It really does challenge all of the traditional notions of anthropology, more so than any place in the Old World. A much better book is Charles Mann's 1491, which highlights what newer research has concluded about Pre-Columbian Americas.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by ChuckMcM on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:58PM (#24195115)
I've read 1491 and enjoyed it immensely. And I understand Jared's cherry picking which is not unlike that of Malcom Gladwell.

That said, cherry picked or not, the conjectures they come up with (both of them), are often thought provoking and lead to additional research for me.

In relation to the reference I made to the Gate's article that crop storage is a performance enhancer for agronomic cultures, is strongly supported by 1491 as well. Mann's discussion of the development of Maize as a food crop, with its ability to be stored for long periods, gave those cultures such as the Olmec greater resiliency against drought and famine. Two conditions which ravage south Saharan Africa today.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:45PM (#24194094)
I like the book as well as the 3 part documentary with the same name. I think it presents a fair perspective of world history.

I agree with the author, 99%.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:07AM (#24195468)
To be more precise, I think the technological advantage made a difference, but the role of Guns and Steel are overrated. European logistics and communications were in my opinion more important than Guns and Steel. Also:

1) Conquest was achieved with the help of local allies, sometimes in the order of hundreds of thousands.

2) A significant part of the conquest was achieved by fighting small nations one at a time rather than a unified force.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by throwaway894345 on Monday August 17, 2020 @10:29PM (#24194680)
I’m pretty sure ggs mentioned the new world origin of syphilis and guinea pig agriculture. Specifically regarding syphilis, Diamond’s argument was that the transmission of germs was largely asymmetrical due to the much more extensive experience of old world civilizations with respect to animal husbandry. Diamond didn’t claim that there were no new world diseases.