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Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by ChuckMcM on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:00PM (#24193296)
Okay. But I'm having a hard time connecting the dots between the way in which crop storage amplifies the agronomic output of a group, and the points you raise.

If you're just trying to point out that "Guns, Germs, and Steel" isn't an all inclusive guide to the rise of civilization, or that different people may have made different choices in their analysis, okay I get that too. Every book is just a single voice in the choir of a genre.

Is that what you're trying to say? That you didn't like the book?

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by jcranmer on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:24PM (#24194940)
The problem with Guns, Germs, and Steel is that it doesn't really comport with the evidence we've gained from archaeology and anthropology in the 20 years since it was written. Or even what was generally accepted within the field when it was written. And if you follow Jared Diamond's other books and commentary since the initial publication, he's made it quite clear that he is going to dismiss any evidence that doesn't comport with his theories rather than adjusting his theories to match evidence, especially as we come to realize that our interpretations of primary sources and physical evidence may have historically been biased and incorrect.

As a historical note, anthropology originally develops in the 18th and 19th centuries as a curiosity about how the great empires (especially Britain) came to be great, and was generally intertwined with a desire to justify the rule over, enslavement of, or even extermination of lesser peoples. The notion that Western Europeans were superior to everyone else was an unquestioned axiom. It's only in the mid-20th century that this inherent racism starts to squeeze out of the field academically, but in the popular culture, it tends to still remain--and books like Guns, Germs, and Steel work against the goal of removing the racism from our humanities.

As someone who is interested in Pre-Columbian Americas, I will attest that the the history is actually quite fascinating. It really does challenge all of the traditional notions of anthropology, more so than any place in the Old World. A much better book is Charles Mann's 1491, which highlights what newer research has concluded about Pre-Columbian Americas.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by ChuckMcM on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:58PM (#24195115)
I've read 1491 and enjoyed it immensely. And I understand Jared's cherry picking which is not unlike that of Malcom Gladwell.

That said, cherry picked or not, the conjectures they come up with (both of them), are often thought provoking and lead to additional research for me.

In relation to the reference I made to the Gate's article that crop storage is a performance enhancer for agronomic cultures, is strongly supported by 1491 as well. Mann's discussion of the development of Maize as a food crop, with its ability to be stored for long periods, gave those cultures such as the Olmec greater resiliency against drought and famine. Two conditions which ravage south Saharan Africa today.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:45PM (#24194094)
I like the book as well as the 3 part documentary with the same name. I think it presents a fair perspective of world history.

I agree with the author, 99%.

Re:We should discuss soil as much as coal (2019) by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:07AM (#24195468)
To be more precise, I think the technological advantage made a difference, but the role of Guns and Steel are overrated. European logistics and communications were in my opinion more important than Guns and Steel. Also:

1) Conquest was achieved with the help of local allies, sometimes in the order of hundreds of thousands.

2) A significant part of the conquest was achieved by fighting small nations one at a time rather than a unified force.