It is not endemic. I think you've met a few people you didn't like, read some tweets, and extrapolated poorly. And I don't think people working on GCP are really treated that much better than their counterparts at AWS. The fact that you think the difference in product depreciation policy between them is caused by people getting "everything they could dream of" is funny though

It's totally endemic. If you work at Google, and can't recognize the smug, superior, yet incompetent culture, odds are you've be incultured.

It's not unique to Google. Lots of organizations intentionally build a culture of elitism. However, it means I would never, ever rely on Google for anything. Free products like search are a-okay. My email is on gmail because legacy.

Build a business on Google platforms? Nope.

Trips to Europe or to random conferences in first class? Trips to _any office_ for "face time"? Massages? Bonuses of any sort, including peer bonuses and holiday gifts? Refreshers? Society thinking that you're "smart" for passing the loop? You're rewarded just for being alive at Google, but I get nothing but scorn and condescension.

Fun fact for you - if I get promoted this year at Amazon to L5, I'll _still_ make less than a new grad at Google. It's extremely depressing to the extent that I can't get out of bed in the morning, but I'd wager that inferiority complex probably helps on the product side to empathize with customers.

The saying goes that if you want a raise, you have to negotiate for it at your new job. Internal promotions typically make less than an outsider coming in for the same position. Some corps say that pay bumps have a max, so internal employees hit that max when getting promoted even though that max is still below what a new hire would be brought in at. I've run into that personally. I fixed it by getting a new job for a new company. When you negotiate that new job's salary, you have to make sure you're going to be okay with it for the next few years while the cycle starts over. And people wonder why job stints are so short today.

Stop comparing yourself to others and work on yourself. Look inward, not outward.

You make six figures at a top tech company and you’re bitterly complaining because you think you’re entitled to more, and in the same breath you’re chastising Google’s pretentious culture? There’s a lot of irony there.

Focus on improving yourself and don’t get caught up in comparing yourself to others.

The only thing to see looking inward is a void.

I see too many people talking about their Tahoe Google offsites (jbd@ on twitter claims a bunch of her coworkers just work from Tahoe during ski season) or their Colorado skiing weekends.

Anyways, hypocrisy doesn't mean I'm wrong, and I think its valid to be mad that I'm seen as inferior daily.

> Fun fact for you - if I get promoted this year at Amazon to L5, I'll _still_ make less than a new grad at Google.

Yet you still make more than what the vast majority of engineers in western Europe will ever make in their whole career. And that's still only looking at the most developed countries.

The job market isn't fair. No use getting burnt over that.

He makes far more than The vast majority of developers in the US.

I know several people making $350k at companies like Lyft two years out of undergrad.

That doesn’t negate my point that you still make more than most developers in the US outside of the HN SV bubble writing CRUD apps or bespoke internal apps that will never see the light of day outside of the company. Go to salary.com and pick any major city not on the west coast.

Give me a break. Lots of teams in Google have restrictive travel policies and never see the pointy end of a plane. Massages cost money. Holiday gifts ceased to exist years ago.

I'm also quite surprised by your wage comment: a common aphorism is that Amazon cheaps out on everything except real estate and compensation.

> Lots of teams in Google have restrictive travel policies and never see the pointy end of a plane.

Which ones do and don't? Because all of the ones I've heard of have pretty loose ones compared to my organization.

And yes, Amazon doesn't cheap out on real estate because we own so much of it. It's honestly remarkable how it's done. But I was under the impression everyone knows they pay less.

Do you not realize how much AMZN appreciated over the last 5 or 10 years compared to FB or GOOG? Many Amazon engineers came out way ahead financially compared to their FANG peers.

FB and GOOG provide more stock and more refreshers. I think its hard to say AMZN engineers have come out ahead consistently.

I only have about ~40 stocks up from about 35 before the refresh cycle (unvested) and that's unlikely to go up if I get promoted (if you have too many they don't give you more). Googler and FB refresher values are significantly higher.

> Fun fact for you - if I get promoted this year at Amazon to L5, I'll _still_ make less than a new grad at Google.

This doesn't appear to be close to true based on levels.fyi, unless you're severely underpaid for an Amazon L5.

Levels.fyi is good, but it's still polluted with TC's from multiple regions in the US (California + NYC have higher base and higher TC by 15% due to taxes). In addition, promos always happen at the low-band and aren't negotiated. There's very likely some intersection between high-band L4 and low-band L5, and I'd be there when/if I promo. The only way to get out of the band is to get a high raise during evaluation season, but this maxes out at 10% or so for "top tier" performance evaluated only once a year.

*The net effect is "pay for performance" isn't really a thing.

The only way for me to do a significant compensation bump is to do what's called a "dive and save", but this is very rarely done for L5's and is significantly more common for L6's. I got an offer for about $200k a year ago at a hedge fund, but that wasn't eligible for dive and save because of my level and I'm (clearly) too mentally defective to pass a Facebook or Google loop.

Dive and save is one option you have, as admittedly being a long time at a company does not usually end up in a great salary. Related: https://randsinrepose.com/archives/the-diving-save/

The other more popular approach is to "play the game" as I think of it, I.e. every 18-24 months you switch to a new job with a substantial increase in pay as result.

I wish this wasn't the case, but I guess it is what it is.

Huh. At this point I'm quite curious if I know you.

Haha, you don’t but I do know you from the Pythonista list.

Then why don’t you move to google if you know they pay better?

I've studied hundreds of hours, failed HC for full time once and I've concluded that I'm mentally incapable of doing so (I blame my parents due to the slight heritability of IQ).

"Just move" is something someone without any empathy for other people's circumstances would say - most people aren't capable of "just moving" as if the only concern is choosing an employer.

Man you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself. These coding interviews aren't IQ tests. If it's any help, a good recommendation from someone in a company would probably be a stronger signal than a leetcode type question.

I think G's ones are supposed to be. They claim themselves to be the top 1% of intelligence.

No disagreement on the good recommendation as a signal, but I doubt that'll matter to the HC if I can't pass 3/5 rounds at the minimum.

My feeling is that getting a job is like dating, a mysterious mix of luck skill chemistry etc, there are some rules but you can follow the rules precisely and still end up losing just because of some odd misfortune. However if you try long enough and put in a solid good faith effort, long enough being unspecified and possibly after you die or go broke, you generally end up with something decent.

That long enough part is the kicker and that terrifies me in every job search (to the extent I have sometimes jumped at the first half decent opportunity, and agreed to salaries below my potential). I find it does help to apply often and everywhere and not be invested in any particular opportunity.

With dating they say every failed relationship is a step toward finding the right one, and I think that same principle applies to job interviews.

Anyways, that’s my two cents

I worked at Facebook for years and did a lot of interviews and the hiring process has inconsistent results for all but the best and worst candidates. The amount of times a candidate was rejected because one iterviewer who had questionable rationale was surprising.

I once had a really good candidate rejected for wearing a T-shirt to a VC interview.

Mind you, he would probably have turned us down anyway to go do a PhD, so he probably dodged a bullet.

Are you really complaining that you only make probably around a quarter million a year?

I don’t even work on the “core tech”, I am on the consulting side, probably make less than you do (albeit in a much lower cost of living area) and I am probably older. But, I am not throwing a pity party on HN

You're $100k off - I make $150k a year. I'd be more satisfied with a quarter million a year to be clear.

Something doesn’t add up. When you say you’re working on the “core tech” are you a developer located in the US working at AWS? Is that your total comp or just your base are you not including RSUs/signing bonus?

I’m not even here to shame $150K. That’s what I was making as CRUD developer pre-Covid at 45 years old (long story) and I also graduated from a no name state school - in the 90s. $150k still means you’re making more than roughly around 80-85% of American households.

It's total compensation including everything. My base is only around $109k or so. I'm not in California or NYC and I joined out of college so base isn't as good as industry hires.

I fully understand shaming $150k, new grads at Google make $180-$210k.

I specifically said that I was not shaming $150k.

You graduated from college and are now making more than most developers in the US and you work at a big tech company. You have the opportunity to leverage that and either get promoted from within or change jobs.

Are you really struggling making $150K straight out of college? You graduated from a state school (as did I) you probably don’t have that much debt.

For context, I’ve been out of college almost a quarter century and I am just now making a little more than a college grad at Google. I’m not complaining and I only have a good 10-15 years to take advantage of the opportunity. You have your whole life ahead of you.

Stop complaining, get on the grind, and do what you need to do. No one owes you a quarter million just because you walked across the stage with a CS degree.

>You have the opportunity to leverage that and either get promoted from within or change jobs.

I think the real problem is I'm not capable of doing so, at least according to the fair labor market.

> Are you really struggling making $150K straight out of college? You graduated from a state school (as did I) you probably don’t have that much debt.

I don't have any debt, I just have a really pathetic savings rate and a really low net worth compared to nearly everyone I know, including folks that didn't do "the grind" that I did. I'll probably not be able to retire or own a car, much less own a house someday.

I spend a lot of time in the Ukraine and talk with people. A friend of mine earns $140/mo ($1680/yr) as a skilled machinist. He has probably as much accumulated skill as me and sweats at his work. I sit around and type out some JS and drink coffee, and make an order of magnitude more money than him. I drove a $500 car (on vegetable oil - cheaper). Live in one bedroom appartment with a Hungarian family. Outside the window are people shooting themselves up. I worked for a couple of years out of a McDonalds with earplugs so the music didn't distract me. I maintain a complex software stack that services nearly a million users with a software they love. I don't want to be doing anything else.

I don't like the IQ/talent fetish that seems to pervade Anglophone culture. Some people have a stronger natural predisposition to sit and stare at a screen and figure out puzzles, and that happens to be sought after on the labor market. Doesn't mean others have less inherent value as human beings.

Would be nice to have a small appartment one day. I just try to offer some perspective.

>> I don't have any debt, I just have a really pathetic savings rate and a really low net worth compared to nearly everyone I know, including folks that didn't do "the grind" that I did. I'll probably not be able to retire or own a car, much less own a house someday.

Dude, please seek mental help. You have so many working years ahead of you. Stop worrying about owning a house. Start budgeting using something like YNAB and get your savings rate under control. Also get all the basic investment vehicles going: 401k, after tax Roth, backdoor Roth etc. You’ll do just fine.

> Stop worrying about owning a house

A lot of my friends are already putting money down on houses and are making hundreds of thousands in options trading on principal that I _don't have_. I'm falling behind permanently and even maxing out my 401k (which I didn't do last year because I don't anticipate living to 65 but decided to this year) won't get me closer with a low principal.

I’m really not being facetious, and this is going to come across that way in writing. You really need to talk to a mental health professional.

I hate that we as a society can say that if you have signs of cancer go see an oncologist and it’s not okay to say that if you show signs of mental health issues go see a professional.

But everything about your comments and your user name points to it.