News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by Recursing on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:08PM (#24144869)
Apple, Microsoft, and Google:

* Forbid alternative browser engines on their platform.

* Bundle their browser in a leading operating system.

* Use their massive Web properties to drive downloads of their own browser.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by toastal on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:25PM (#24145107)
And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store. It's pretty anti-competitive.

I believe Valve's been a bit on edge (no pun intended), about Microsoft forcing games through their store as well.

Mozilla was helping us out of these walled gardens. There's even the SSB support they've been working for PWAs on desktop. Instead of bundling Electron, you could likely just target ESR Firefox and your app icon just launches this URL (this is what Peppermint OS does). Instead now you have Chrome and all of these Electron apps all competing for who can chew up the most RAM.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by coldtea on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:33PM (#24150404)
>And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store.

Knee-capped? For years Safari had the best PWA support compared to Android.

And at first it even asked developers to make PWAs, and they said "no, we want native apps".

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by toastal on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:30PM (#24152532)
There's no push notification support, no background sync, offline support isn't good, they're wiping storage after 7 days, etc.

There isn't a defined spec sure, but they idea is to give Web Apps somewhat equal footing with native apps while having potential be more secure being tied to browser sandboxing, extensions, settings, etc. This doesn't appear to be in Apple's goals given those missing features. You can see devs begging for push notifications for years--and it works on desktop Safari.

At work, this is the specific feature we want above everything else in our PWA experience. Apple's been reluctant to say the least to allow repackaged Web Apps in their store, but can you blame developers when features like this are missing but present?

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by toastal on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:55PM (#24145465)
It would seem even the Chrome Web Store is being met with frustration too

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-chrome-web-st...

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by gamblor956 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:14PM (#24144931)
Microsoft and Google allow alternative browser engines. Apple does not.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by dlivingston on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:22PM (#24145042)
Only within iOS. The average person downloading Firefox for iPhone doesn’t know (or care) if it’s built on WebKit or Gecko.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by dreamcompiler on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:21PM (#24145040)
On IOS. On a Mac you can run any browser engine you want.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by leeoniya on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:33PM (#24145202)
i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation.

things are much more likely to go the iOS route given it's already ARM.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by the_other on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:20PM (#24145742)
Apple will lose their entire Mac audience if this happens. Slowly, but surely.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by alwillis on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:45PM (#24146015)
i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation.

There’s no other shoe. There's no known technical reason why all the major browsers shouldn't be available natively when ARM Macs start shipping in a few months.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by perryizgr8 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:00PM (#24146184)
There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start. It's not about technical reasons.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by rvense on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:52PM (#24146845)
Exactly. I don't care about the size of the screen. It's my damn computer, I should be allowed to put whatever software I want on it.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by alwillis on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:40PM (#24146699)
There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start.

Why would Apple allow other browser engines that are slower, less power efficient and don't respect user’s privacy at least as much as Webkit to run natively on iOS?

Apple continues to add features to block ads from tracking users across the web and to lessen the impact of fingerprinting by trackers.

Certainly Google has no interest in adhering to these principles if it were able to run natively on iOS—they're the only major browser on macOS that allows unchecked fingerprinting and ad tracking.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by seabrookmx on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:23PM (#24147261)
> Why would Apple allow

There's your problem. Apple doesn't own the device.. I do.

Apple can "recommend" I use Safari all they want (not unlike MS does with Edge) but if I own the device I should have the right to run any software I want. Full stop.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by ncmncm on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:57PM (#24152323)
That is what you think. It is not what Apple thinks. Which do you suppose wins more often?
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by malnourish on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:05PM (#24146238)
Can you use alternative browsers on Chromebooks (sans rooting)?
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by seabrookmx on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:26PM (#24147319)
Technically, yes. Crostini is a WSL-like VM layer that allows you to run arbitrary Linux apps, including Firefox and Epiphany on ChromeOS.

Practically speaking though, this is all command-line heavy and developer centric. Your typical Chromebook user can't/won't.

I'm actually grappling with this issue right now.. I'm a long time Firefox user and picked up a Lenovo Duet ChromeOS device to serve as a replacement for my cheap Android tablet.

Turns out.. I really like the form factor and am using it a lot (typing on it right now!). But the Firefox Android apps are a pretty terrible experience and since I don't plan on using this for dev, I don't want to jump through all the crostini hoops. So here I am, using Chrome..

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by amenod on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:45PM (#24145338)
They both fight with every dirty dark UX pattern they can get away with. Not much difference in practice.

If anything, at the moment Apple is doing more for the web diversity than anyone else. They have a non-negligeable market share and can force Google to abandon at least the most outrageous plans for Chrome.

Not that they are angels, of course... It's a pity that Mozilla failed to find a better revenue source that would include keeping Firefox alive.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by liujy on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:12PM (#24145646)
> Bundle their browser in a leading operating system.

What’s the alternative here? I can’t imagine opening up a new computer and not having some kind of web browser pre-installed.

Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by estebank on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:46PM (#24146026)
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by esperent on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:34PM (#24145895)
It takes about 2 minutes to download and install a browser. Most operating systems already expect an internet connection when you're installing them, it would be easy to add a screen saying "select which browser you want" as part of the process.
Re:"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla by nitrogen on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:08PM (#24146275)
For slow connections, some of that space currently allocated to bloatware should be reassigned to browser choice.