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Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:01PM (#24133381)
I'm conflicted about this because i believe drivers deserve benefits but also uber should not be forced to pay full benefits for someone who drives just a bit on a weekend night.

Where is the line of hours driven until you get benefits? I dont know, but I think that is the wrong question.

The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare.

If we offered national healthcare, like many other countries, it would solve the problem across the board. It could be funded by Uber and all other companies through some type of tax. That seems a lot more efficient than trying to solve the problem piecemeal.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by akiselev on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:05PM (#24133442)
> Where is the line? I dont know, but I think that is the wrong question.

40 hours according to the California Department of Industrial Relations and 30 hours according to the Affordable Care Act.

> The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare.

It's not just healthcare. It's also about unemployment insurance, paid time off, 401k contributions/matching, how the tax burden is split, and on and on.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gruez on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:17PM (#24133571)
>40 hours according to the California Department of Industrial Relations and 30 hours according to the Affordable Care Act.

So uber can avoid this requirement by only allowing drivers to work for 40/30 hours per week?

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by Shebanator on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:23PM (#24133636)
Well, yes and no. They can avoid healthcare requirements by not allowing people to work 30+ hours per week (as Walmart and MacDonalds often do), but that doesn't get rid of their other obligations to employees (disability, unemployment, social security, payroll tax, etc.). They already provide these services for their non-driver employees, so the issue here is purely cost.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by ianlevesque on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:20PM (#24133608)
I see you’re familiar with retail jobs.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:18PM (#24133582)
The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare.

Because one political party has spent the last 4 decades fighting to prevent "national healthcare," forcing states and businesses to deal with it.

Hell, they've spent the last 10 years trying to demolish a law that the overwhelming majority of voters support, including those within their own party.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:21PM (#24133615)
Totally agree on the root cause here. Curious though - can California deal with this by offering some a state-level single-payer benefit and charging employers? That would be a broader solution that would address many things in one swoop.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:07PM (#24134178)
They have tried, but the aforementioned political party blocked such efforts at the state level in the past, and currently federal law (again, due to that same political party) requires the state to get permission from the federal government to implement a single-payer healthcare system.

However, as currently envisioned, the single-payer system would not charge employers; it would be part of the taxes levied on all taxpayers (including employers), which would spread out the costs more.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by refurb on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:40PM (#24134609)
That’s a disingenuous take on it.

CA could fix it’s own health system to cover everyone. Yes, there are federal rules they’d need to work around, but they could do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/business/economy/californ...

Basically, one someone tallied up the cost, it ran out of steam. Just like in VT.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:46PM (#24136007)
It's pretty clear that the opinionists didn't actually read the studies they linked to, since at least one of the studies they cited to claim that single-payer would increase costs actually said single-payer would do the opposite, to the tune of a more than 8% reduction of 2017 amounts, which was before a number of health insurers jacked up their premiums just because they could. https://www.peri.umass.edu/media/k2/attachments/PollinZetZal...
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:21PM (#24134363)
Do Californians get a lot of benefit for the high taxes they currently pay? Californians seem to be voting with their feet, moving to lower tax states: https://www.ocregister.com/2019/10/31/190122-more-people-lef...

Do you feel strongly that one more tax would solve all of California's problems?

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by danans on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:48PM (#24134706)
The biggest factor encouraging Californians to move out of state is high cost of housing, not the higher taxes.

For example on a household income of $100,000 with members married filing jointly, California effective state income tax rate is about 3%, or in this case $3,000.

Moving to a zero state income tax state like Washington or Texas will only save you that much in state taxes but will probably save you a huge amount more in lower housing costs - for a common single-family home perhaps on the order of 20 to $30,000 a year.

If you want to place blame anywhere, place it on restrictive zoning laws that limit the construction of new housing, and on proposition 13 which has disincentivized the building of residential real estate in favor of commercial, and allowed untold numbers of properties to multiply and value over the decades without paying anything near an equivalent increase in property taxes.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by lozaning on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:17PM (#24135044)
Lord have mercy on anyone trying to explain this to angry boomer parents that live in Orange County (mine generally included).

The reason your kids cant buy a house down the street from yours has nothing to do with how much taxes your kids pay and everything to do with the policies that you've voted for over a lifetime of homeownership that have insured way less supply than demand.

These people _love_ to talk about how much more their houses are worth at dinner parties everytime you see them and then are all surprised pikachu face when they've priced out their own kids.

Housing can be affordable or an investment, but not both.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:39PM (#24134589)
Most of the people leaving CA were of the far-right political persuasion, so good riddance to them. And generally, CA is already overpopulated for the amount of housing currently available (or constructable within the near future), so having fewer people actually relieves a lot of the overusage issues currently plaguing many of the public services in CA.

With specific respect to the tax issue, the flipside of "one more tax" to pay for a single-payer system is that it would replace health insurance premiums. Because premiums are currently set for smaller risk sharing pools than a statewide pool of nearly 40 million, and those premiums must also include significant profit margins to pay for health executive's multimillion dollar annual bonuses, it would be very easy for a single-payer tax levy to undercut premiums by more than 50% (and for the single-payer proposals currently under consideration, the employee savings range from 50-90%).

If anything, the problem with a tax for a single-payer health system is that people would be saving so much money compared to paying health insurance premiums that CA would have too many people moving into the state for the rest of our public services to handle.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by refurb on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:43PM (#24134651)
Most of the people leaving CA were of the far-right political persuasion, so good riddance to them.

Ha! Yeah, CA is known for it’s multitude of far-right groups.

And if they are so far right, why are they leaving and voting for left wing policies in other states?

Suffice to say CA has some of the highest taxes of any state, yet it also has some of the worst social problems - poverty, homelessness, etc.

I’d say it CA inability to run a tight ship despite all the taxes that is causing people to leave.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:56PM (#24134809)
>> Suffice to say CA has some of the highest taxes of any state, yet it also has some of the worst social problems - poverty, homelessness, etc.

I was under the impression that much of the homelessness problem is because CA is a nice place to live (with or without a home) and because the climate is temperate and thus safer to live than most other places (where a homeless person could literally freeze to death.)

Sorry if this sounds insensitive -- I really want to understand this: I concede that cost of housing could lead to homelessness, but I dont understand this -- isnt the housing cost really a problem just in the two major metro areas? Is housing exorbitant once you leave those areas? For someone who is homeless, is there any gravity anymore to -- say -- being close to SF/SV/Hollywood?

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:57PM (#24136148)
You're right on both counts. CA has a big homeless problem because of the weather, and other states exploit that to use CA as a dumping ground for their own homeless.

LA Times' Steve Lopez interviewed a number of homeless last year in a series of articles. Most of them weren't from LA. They just came because they were told the weather was great and that drugs in LA were free.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:55PM (#24136116)
CA is a huge state, and while the big cities are mostly liberal, the rural parts of the state are very conservative. Nixon and Reagan hail from Southern California, and up until fairly recently, Orange County and the Inland Empire were more conservative than the Southeast.

A number of far right groups can trace their origins to the Inland Empire or to CA's far North.

As for the homeless issues: multiple states admit that they use CA as their dumping grounds for their homeless. It was, and still is, the unofficial policy of the state of Texas to buy their homeless tickets to LA. (Former TX governor Rick Perry used to openly brag about this, including when he was running for president.) A recent survey conducted by the LA Times last year found that more than half of LA's homeless aren't even from California. They just came here because authorities back home suggested that they would enjoy CA more. Excluding the non-local homeless, LA would have enough beds to house its own homeless. We just don't have enough to house the entire country's homeless as well.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by refurb on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:26PM (#24136506)
I'm confused as hell.

I keep hearing that most of the homeless in SF are actually from SF.

As of 2015, approximately 71% of the city's homeless had housing in the city before becoming homeless, while the remaining 29% came from outside of San Francisco. This figure is up from 61% in 2013.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by TuringNYC on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:52PM (#24134760)
The current solution is also a tax, just in a different form.

A broader solution would not be one-more-tax, it would be net-zero. The current proposal is also a tax -- it forces a cost on Uber (which will be passed onto customers) to solve the problem on a micro level. Whether I pay an "Uber regulatory recovery fee" or some other tax is all net zero. But I'd love to see a broader solution that solves the problem more universally (if not at the federal level, then at least at the state level).

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by Shebanator on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:24PM (#24133648)
California has seriously discussed doing exactly that. But given the situation in DC, it is likely that they would be actively sabotaged by the federal government if they tried. So much for "states rights"....
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:09PM (#24134213)
> national healthcare

Let me anecdotally tell you that a large healthcare program has not been good in my experience. Single Payer maybe good though so long as there is choice and competition.

Another consideration is that the US has been setup to allow a sort of localism where states can design their own solutions. It might be best for each system to be setup as a state level item.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by philjohn on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:25PM (#24136482)
Does that not ignore the massive disparity in population between states. In California the risk pool would be wide enough that it wouldn't be a problem, in states with < 1 million residents that suddenly becomes very difficult indeed.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @05:50PM (#24137424)
Decent question, I'm not qualified to answer. Few, (none?) companies have 1M employees, how do they/insurance do it?
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by philjohn on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @05:24AM (#24208621)
Looking at rates that employers (and then employees pay, especially in copays) the answer would appear to be "expensively".

Look at the NHS in the UK, on average it costs £3k per person per year, outcomes are broadly similar (if not better, especially in areas like post-partum mortality) and as a % of GDP is half as expensive as US healthcare.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by chrisco255 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:16PM (#24134299)
ACA (in particular the forced care provision) was extremely unpopular and it led to the formation of the Tea Party, which swept the House in 2010.

There's many good reasons to avoid nationalized healthcare. Have you been to the post office or the DMV?

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by mcherm on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:31PM (#24134489)
> Have you been to the post office or the DMV?

Yes, I have. The post office seems to do an EXCELLENT job of delivering mail at an absurdly low price (for standard letters or postcards), although when I lived in Chicago for a few years I found that a certain portion of letters were never delivered.

A number of years ago the DMV (I was in New York and New Jersey at the time) offered terrible customer service; these days the DMV I have gone to (New Jersey and Pennsylvania) seem to do an excellent job.

What I can conclude from this is that quality varies, whether in private industry or public services.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:46PM (#24134695)
A single-payer system isn't a state healthcare system.

It's a public-private healthcare system in which a single entity pays all healthcare providers for health services rendered.

Individual providers would still be free to negotiate their own rates with the single-payer entity.

Individual providers would still be free to provide concierge medical services or other non-covered medical services (for example, most plastic surgery).

Individual providers would still be free to distinguish themselves on the basis of patient service.

And with all due respect, the problem with the post office is that the GOP requires it to pay for decades of upfront expenses now rather than when those expenses are incurred, unlike a private business, and the GOP won't actually let the post office operate anything like a private business. If the post office could operate like a private company it would shut down every rural post office in America, since those are just money drains that detract from the profitable urban and suburban facilities. If the post office could operate like a government agency again (like it did before Reagan), it would run as smooth as butter.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by NationalPark on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:46PM (#24134694)
The ACA has always hovered around 50% favorability and 40% unfavorability nationally, so "extremely unpopular" isn't accurate. Additionally, support among voters for Medicare for all is about 70%.

The Tea Party predates the ACA and was more a general anti-Obama movement than specifically motivated by one policy.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by MisterBastahrd on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:29PM (#24134463)
ACA was extremely unpopular because of how it was characterized. It is extremely popular today.

Have I been to the post office or the DMV? Sure. And when there are a ton of people who want to use a service, you tend to have to wait.

Have YOU been to a for-profit emergency room? Or a for-profit, non-fast-food restaurant? Hell, go to a Fed Ex or UPS store. They won't be perfect, and you will wait in line.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by dehrmann on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:31PM (#24133714)
> ...forced to pay full benefits for someone who drives just a bit on a weekend night.

And for their competitor.

Dara Khosrowshahi is right that there needs to be a "third way." Uber would obviously prefer contractors, and maybe the "third way" talk is just them realizing that's not politically viable, but however they reached the conclusion, they're right that this is a different category of work.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by thewebcount on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:10PM (#24134219)
No he's not. This is no different than someone working the morning shift at McDonald's and working the evening shift at Burger King. It should work exactly the same as that.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by jquery on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:20PM (#24134343)
If you have a job at McDonalds, you can’t take 6 months off (without even notifying anyone!) and come back like nothing has happened. You can’t switch your schedule to a morning shift at Burger King and an evening shift at McDonald’s at will. Being an employee comes with certain benefits, but also certain responsibilities. Not everyone wants to be saddled with those obligations. Some of us want to be able to earn cash whenever we feel like it.

EDIT: To a reply saying I don’t understand how fast food restaurants operate, I certainly do, I’ve worked fast food in my life. While they certainly try to be flexible, you can’t just decide to show up approximately “whenever you feel like it.” The closest approximation to that is to only have 4 hours a week regularly scheduled (otherwise they can’t call you an employee), and then you call in whenever you feel like working to see if they need help (often they will say “yes” but sometimes they will say “no”). However, this arrangement only works once you have enough experience that you can come in and basically work any position in the restaurant, and it’s not something that can be scaled to every worker at the restaurant.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:50PM (#24134738)
I don't think you actually understand how fast food restaurants operate.

You actually can take several months off from McDonalds if you want and come back. Many employees do, especially the ones that work at college-town McDs...

Moreover, you can switch shifts at will, so long as you find another employee to exchange shifts with.

Pretty much the difference between fast food and Uber is that fast food is a minimum 8 hour shift and Uber can be as short as a 1 minute ride.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by tathougies on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:28PM (#24135166)
And what happens if you decide you won't show up today to work at McDonalds? And tomorrow, and the next day? Without telling anyone? Yeah... that's right.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by gamblor956 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:27PM (#24135777)
You might get fired. But since restaurants (especially fast food) deal with this all the time, they just move on and will frequently let people start working again once they've resolved their issues.

And what happens if you don't log in to Uber or Lyft every day? You'll fall off their internal automated lists for ride selection priority and get stuck with all the undesirable rides nobody else wanted to drive.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by cool_dude85 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:42PM (#24134636)
Luckily for Uber, if they don't want their new employees working for Lyft while they're on the clock, they can make it a condition of employment. Bingo bongo, problem solved.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by dnautics on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:57PM (#24134821)
yeah, that's fine IF the drivers have the option to choose, but the judgement says that the drivers MUST be classified as employees.
Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by tzs on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:51PM (#24133954)
> I'm conflicted about this because i believe drivers deserve benefits but also uber should not be forced to pay full benefits for someone who drives just a bit on a weekend night.

> Where is the line of hours driven until you get benefits? I dont know, but I think that is the wrong question.

I wonder if there is a reason it could't work like this:

• If you work N hours in a week for employer X, where N meets the benefit threshold, T, for some type of benefit, the employer has to provide that benefit.

• If N does not meet that threshold, the employer has to make a payment of N/T x C to the State, where C is the weekly cost for the person to pay for that benefit themselves.

• The State keeps track of these payments on a per worker basis and works with the benefit providers to use them as a subsidy on the worker's cost to buy the benefit.

For example, for health insurance, if Bob drove 40 hours a week for Uber, Uber would have to offer Bob the same health insurance they provide their full time employees.

If Bob only drives 10 hours a week for Uber, delivers food for Grubhub 15 hours a week, and does 10 hours waiting tables at a cafe, none of those would have to provide health insurance, because the threshold is 30 hours. But Uber would have to contribue 1/3 C, Grubhub 1/2 C, and the cafe 1/3 C to the State for Bob's health insurance. That would be enough to cover Bob getting health insurance on his state's ACA market.

It would actually be more than enough. If the excess carries over to be used in weeks when Bob works less than 30 hours total, then as long as Bob averages 30 hours of work a week, he has health insurance.

Re:Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down tempora... by mrlala on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:21PM (#24133617)
>The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare.

Because that's the way the stupid system currently works?

So it's both- Uber should be forced to work in the current confines of the system, and there should be questions like national healthcare

>If we offered national healthcare, like many other countries, it would solve the problem across the board. It could be funded by Uber and all other companies through some type of tax. That seems a lot more efficient than trying to solve the problem piecemeal.

As others has said, it's not just healthcare.. payroll taxes, other benefits etc.. Uber is basically trying to avoid all of this by pretending that 100% of their workforce are "contractors" even though many work 40+ hours a week like a normal employee.