News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by lambdasquirrel on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:41PM (#24067936)
Not to mention that Russia bore the brunt of human loss in the war for the Allies. It's quite staggering that in 1945, most people in Europe felt that the Soviet Union had done the most to defeat the Nazi regime, but that by modern day, most people think it was the U.S.

To be sure, the Soviets would have lost the war if it were not for the U.S. The Russian breadbasket had been taken by the Nazis, and the retreating Russians burned everything to the ground as they gave ground. But when you look at the erasure of the Russian role in fighting the Nazis, as well as the troublesome views of leaders like Churchill, you wonder not only about Fuchs, but also about the clean version of history we're taught about that war.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by thrwway34 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:19PM (#24073119)
If you will March your troops through minefield 'like it's not there' (e.g. Zhukov's revelations) it will definitely lead to losses.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by TomMarius on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:15AM (#24068299)
We don't feel the US did more in terms of quantity of dead men, we know more Soviet-affiliated troops died there. However with hindsight we now know the real plan of the Soviet Union - it never was to help Europe, but to conquer it. So in conclusion the US government helped us more (and not just during the war), while the SU government sent more people to die for their shady goals here. Nobody is discounting the heroism of the individual soldiers. The sad thing is that the current Russian government is using their legacy to pursue their shady goals again.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by cycomanic on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:46AM (#24068678)
That needs some serious citations. If you're saying it's evidenced by the soviet military in the Eastern block I encourage you to look at the US presence in Nato countries. I know that history in the US is largely a picture of American exceptionalism and "we were always the good guys", but actual history has many more shades of gray. This is one thing that the allies (in both parts of Germany) did reasonably well, break the circle of history as a means for teaching patriotism.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by TomMarius on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:13AM (#24068783)
I know of the US presence in NATO countries and we welcome it. It is absolutely incomparable to the Warsaw Pact occupation of our country (for example, the US forces didn't shoot anybody nor ran over people with a tank) which is the reason why we welcomed the US forces and joined NATO as soon as we could after 1989. Not sure what citations should I send you, I live here (Czechia). You can probably read about it on Wikipedia, I'd do the same.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:08AM (#24069010)
US forces tend to do their shooting and running over in Central/South America and the Middle East. Many countries in those areas are less impressed by US benevolence.

The US is an empire. So was the USSR. So are China and modern Russia. Some provinces are treated better than others, but empires are empires, and propaganda, political manipulation, corruption, violence, and torture are how they roll - together with resource capture, labour management, and various levels of market development.

Europe had a notable level of propaganda and political manipulation, and still does, and not so much of the overt violence. But just because the corruption, violence and torture were happening elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't happening at all.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by TomMarius on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:24AM (#24069097)
I do not say that it's not happening. That does not mean we do not welcome the US, or that its actions here are comparable to the actions of the SU, or that the SU, a comparably much worse regime which caused dozens of millions deaths after the war (many in the SU itself, but not only), helped Europe more.

I guess I should thank the SU for stealing our uran, making my fellow citizens forcibly work in the mines as a punishment for not being communist enough, and for hindering our economical development by decades (of the country that used to be one of the most advanced European states before the war, and got destroyed AFTER the war so much that it fell below Africa in HDI)? Well, thanks...

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by rangibaby on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:29AM (#24068359)
Was getting invaded by Germany part of their master plan too?
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by TomMarius on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:30AM (#24068367)
I don't know, why does it matter? How does it change their final goals, visible from their political actions since around 1943? Why do you think I claim they had a master plan from the beginning?
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by Viliam1234 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:21PM (#24076046)
> However with hindsight we now know the real plan of the Soviet Union - it never was to help Europe, but to conquer it.

I think you don't even need the hindsight, just look at history: Soviet Union and Nazi Germany started the war as allies, their first action was splitting Poland... why would anyone expect they would have stopped there?

So, essentially, we are supposed to thank Russians for liberating us from their former allies (and even that only happened because their former allies stabbed them in the back first). I don't know... after the Nazis attacked the Soviet Union, what options had Soviet Union left other than fighting back?

If you become friends with the Nazis, start a war together as allies, then you get betrayed by them, then you defend yourself successfully (with help of many other countries) and finally defeat them... that doesn't really make you a textbook example of a good guy. You need a lot of propaganda to make people forget how this all started.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by goatinaboat on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:38AM (#24068399)
the erasure of the Russian role in fighting the Nazis, as well as the troublesome views of leaders like Churchill

I'm curious as to which of Churchill's views (or acts) you think were more problematic than Stalin's.

And in the aftermath of WW2, which countries prospered more, those liberated by and/or occupied by the West, or by the Soviets?

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by Lio on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:15AM (#24068543)
I wonder how many of those deaths were down to Stalin not caring whether his own people lived or died?

Having a high death toll in itself is not a sign of good leadership or self sacrifice.

It’s a sign that some bugger is ordering someone else to put themselves in danger on pain of being shot if they don’t.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by AniseAbyss on Thursday August 06, 2020 @05:21AM (#24069362)
I find this line of reasoning strange. The USSR was invaded by evil Nazis who wanted to enslave them for a thousand years. Somehow we spin this into "Stalin didn't care".

And the idea that Russians had to be forced at gunpoint to defend their country is so ludicrous and offensive I have no words.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by thrwway34 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:11PM (#24073019)
That's not just an idea. Order No. 270 ordered to shoot any deserters (or anybody who's not 'organizing resistance') on the spot and promised imprisonment for families of those who surrendered to the Germans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by sassypotato on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:18AM (#24071691)
On the other hand the USSR allied itself with the evil Nazis so they would both invade Poland. The USSR was clearly an expansionist and imperalist power and given the gulag system reached it's peak well before the start of the war, we know Stalin did not care at all about human life.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by jsiepkes on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:11AM (#24071618)
A lot of the Russian people didn't have much love for the Russian regime (ie. Stalin). The Nazi's were in a lot of places in Russia initially greeted as liberators. If the Nazi's hadn't turned out to be even more brutal then Stalin history might have taken a different path.

See for example sources like: https://www.hf.uio.no/ilos/english/research/news-and-events/...

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by Lio on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:50AM (#24078786)
I’m really sorry that sounds offensive to you but that’s probably just cognitive dissonance.

Stalin purged as many of his experienced officers as possible during the 1930s because he saw them as a threat.

Many show trials were filmed and you can watch them if you wish.

The yes men Stalin replaced them with made a lot of stupid decisions.

As a consequence a lot of people died unnecessarily.

If they’d have refused to follow stupid orders the alternative were death or gulag if the were lucky.

Sheer numbers and simple bravery are what got the Russian people through the war.

Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by nappy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:18AM (#24068091)
Is it "staggering" though? In the short term, it is more simple to point to human lives and deaths. In the longer term, the more complex contribution of industrial forces is easier to understand. At least some shift in public opinion is natural.
Re:Why did the atomic spy do it? by jmnicolas on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:58AM (#24068734)
> At least some shift in public opinion is natural.

Of course propaganda has nothing to do with it /s