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Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by wenc on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:38AM (#24051040)
This reminds me of my Ph.D. crisis. (which I'm sure many former grad students can relate to)

I was in my 6th year. All my friends had graduated, and my stipend had run out. I was 2 weeks away from submission and discovered that one of my assumptions was wrong, which potentially distorted/invalidated all my studies -- to fix these studies would have potentially delayed submission for months. It was a very subtle assumption violation (and it wasn't even that wrong) and my committee probably wouldn't even have noticed. I was tempted to sweep it under the carpet and not let it keep me from graduating.

But I knew it was wrong. I felt that if I sacrificed my integrity then, the moral failure would mark me for life. No one would know -- but I would know. So I decided to fix the issue, re-do the studies and live with the reality that I would have to delay my defense.

Turns out when you're desperate -- and many grad students can attest to this -- a resourcefulness that you never thought you had kicks in ("where were you during all my years of grad school?"). I don't remember how, but I somehow managed to wrangle new studies out in 3 days (which would have previously taken me months). I made the deadline in the end.

The lesson I learned was that committing to doing the right thing has its costs, but in some cases it also forces one to explore attacks never previously considered. Asking on MathOverflow is one such attack.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by supernova87a on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:13PM (#24052138)
There's another (slightly kinder) version of this:

When people go to grad school, then during their studentship get married and have a kid -- suddenly their productivity goes up dramatically and output per time increases by many factors. What happened?

It turns out when you have self-motivating reasons to get out (and a target on your head from your spouse to earn some money for godssake), you find ways to focus on what's important and drop the rest.

No more idling away for hours on silly ideas that don't get you closer to handing in your thesis. No more trying random libraries that get your code to run 2% faster. No more goofing around after 6pm with other students just because you have the time -- you have to get home and be a breadwinner for your family. You have to get shit done.

You start to ask, "even if I don't know exactly what the thesis will say, how should it be organized and what kinds of conclusions will make up the writing? And what experiments do I need to fill in those charts/paragraphs, and no more?" What's the minimum I need to do to get out of here? Not, "What amazing interesting thing could I explore?"

Limits and constraints sometimes free the mind dramatically. The side effect is maybe you don't get to explore ideas that go nowhere, but that's a discussion about the purpose of the PhD and for another topic I guess.

(And sometimes, if you think, well I don't have a kid, so what's the rush? Well, someday you might have a spouse, a kid, and every day of time you left in grad school is a day for your future self -- and family -- and $$ -- left behind in time. Work to free your future self... now, while you have the time.)

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by supernova87a on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:21PM (#24052245)
I might offer a corollary as an practice to adopt (in the absence of the above possibility) -- learn to enable your research to have visible incremental gains on a known path every day, rather than hoping (hoping!) for some amazing breakthrough at the end.

Amazing breakthroughs have high risk, and make it highly likely you'll have a crisis when it doesn't happen.

And what I mean is that, even if you don't know what the answer is going to be at the end of your research, you must think about, or have an idea about, the format of what that amazing answer is going to be. Write the outline of your thesis and "ghost out" what the major charts will be. Write the intro sentences of each chapter -- what are they? (and I don't just mean the boring review of the field part, but your findings part)

You should know what major finding, plot, or table your research is going to output. What are the columns and rows of that table, or axes of that plot? How many data points are required? How many of them can already be guessed? Where is the surprise going to be? What is the conclusion going to be?

For most graduate research, the finding is not an amazing field-changing big bang. Few grad students are that fortunate. Or at least most of the bulk of the work will be of that sort. You should be able to predict what the answer is going to look like from past work, and the error bars.

Draw out the answer you're aiming for, now. If you can't even articuate what the answer will look like, you may be in for a bad time, so work on fixing that. It will also push you and your advisor to be specific about what the output of your thesis will be.

Your future self will thank you.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by thomasahle on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @03:17PM (#24053481)
> You should be able to predict what the answer is going to look like from past work, and the error bars.

If you basically know the answer in advance, chances are you are not doing very interesting research.

The worst work I have done has been of this sort. The best has had me completely change my view of (mathematical) reality multiple times during the process.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by supernova87a on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @04:11PM (#24054004)
Well, I'm of course emphasizing empirical fields. Maybe you're in one of those heavily theoretical fields.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by thomasahle on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:24PM (#24054650)
In emperical fields as well I would assume the purpose of doing experiments is that you don't already know what the result will be. I accept that this may be a idealised or naive...
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by supernova87a on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:38PM (#24054765)
I'm not talking about the exact result, right? Just that someone engaging in research should know what the format of the plot/table/output should look like, how much work is needed to populate that table, and what kind of conclusions will come out of it.

If you (the general "you") are in industry breakthrough territory, you're an advanced student and my advice isn't for you. Otherwise, I think it's a good practice.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by thomasahle on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:14PM (#24055063)
> what kind of conclusions will come out of it.

Fair. I think considering what possible conclusions could come is certainly important. I worried about your original post suggesting actually writing the conclusion in advance.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by newen on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:28PM (#24052343)
One of my professor's recommendation was to write the actual paper that you want to write, introduction, related works, methods, discussion, conclusion, leaving the figures, tables, etc. blank, before you actually start doing the experiments.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by supernova87a on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:48PM (#24052536)
Many advisors don't push their students to do this, and they should. Or they haven't had enough practice to know to do this. Or they're not taking their responsibility seriously enough.

An effective PhD advisor/thesis isn't wandering the woods to find something. It's a guided coaching exercise, with an outcome in mind. If your advisor doesn't know this, maybe time to find a new advisor...

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by Twisol on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:41PM (#24053165)
> An effective PhD advisor/thesis isn't wandering the woods to find something. It's a guided coaching exercise, with an outcome in mind. If your advisor doesn't know this, maybe time to find a new advisor...

You don't know me, but I really needed to hear this. I left grad school essentially because of a dearth of coaching. Thank you for framing this so succinctly.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mkl on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:45PM (#24055317)
This reminds me of Simon Peyton-Jones's (of Haskell fame) seminars on How to Write a Great Research Paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/academic-program/wr...

There are multiple slightly different versions of the seminar (another is linked below that one), but unfortunately they all came out after I'd finished my PhD, and I didn't hear that advice from anyone else.

The process I arrived at after losing time on failed projects was basically "fail fast": find the simplest quickest way to demonstrate that your idea won't work, and do that. Then find the next simplest, and so on, until either it works or you've proven it doesn't and moved on.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by rustybolt on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:30AM (#24058827)
Introduction, related works, methods, OK, but writing the conclusion before doing experiments sounds like an integrity issue (assuming you re-write the conclusion after the experiments -- else I'd label it fraud). What is the idea behind it?
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by valarauko on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:06PM (#24084162)
As someone who was encouraged to do something similar, it was akin to creating a template manuscript for the project at hand: sketch out the experiments you plan to do, the likely results, and illustrative figures. This is meant as an exercise very early on in the project discussion phase, before any experiments have been performed, and while you're still figuring out the papers to read.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by newen on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:28PM (#24067343)
No. Obviously you rewrite the whole paper. Academics rewrite their papers multiple times before submitting them. The whole thing is a draft of a draft. The idea is to make your ideas very very concrete by writing them down as a paper.

Really annoys me when the word fraud is thrown around so freely, so I'd appreciate it if you don't.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by rustybolt on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:05AM (#24069590)
Thanks for the explanation.

> Obviously you rewrite the whole paper

It is not mentioned and was not obvious to me. Still, I'd postpone writing the conclusion to after you actually have the data. To do otherwise would be steering the experiments to get the expected results. I also reckon this depends on your field, how long the experiments take and your confidence in the results.

> Really annoys me when the word fraud is thrown around so freely, so I'd appreciate it if you don't.

I agree, 'academic dishonesty' is a more appropriate term here.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by newen on Thursday August 06, 2020 @10:14AM (#24071048)
You typically have a finite set of overall results you expect to get, usually something like positive or negative. It helps to write out what you would conclude when you get either results. Think of this like a process that helps make your ideas clearer. And makes writing your final paper a lot easier.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mensetmanusman on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:30PM (#24054706)
This is amazing advice I hadn’t heard before, it rings very true.

I remember after my first paper was finished and submitted, and wow, it seemed easy to bang out papers after that, all you needed was four to five figures :)

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by valarauko on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:01PM (#24084107)
My Doctoral Advisor had similar advice, though he suggested to add in aspirational figures as well. It can be helpful to help guide your initial readings and your experiments.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by kiba on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:30PM (#24052368)
For most graduate research, the finding is not an amazing field-changing big bang. Few grad students are that fortunate. You should be able to predict what the answer is going to look like from past work, and the error bars.

Does it ever works that way for field changing big bang ideas? Every human achievement was built upon the back of previous achievement and works, either by you or someone else.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by musicale on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:51PM (#24056118)
It's easy to forget that grad school is the start of a career rather than the summit, so the work just has to be publishable, not earth-shattering.

Most nobel/turing/fields level work doesn't happen while the researcher is still in graduate school, because a) it usually benefits from additional experience, knowledge, and resources and b) it can sometimes take years to complete.

It also might not be obvious to a dissertation committee (or anyone else) how field-changing certain work actually is until many years have passed, and they might dismiss it early on. Consider Tim Berners-Lee, who was actually a Physicist but received the Turing award because the web (and HTTP/HTML) turned out to have much greater impact than predecessors like FTP, NNTP, PLATO, HyperCard, Director, Xanadu, Intermedia, Gopher, AOL, etc..

Another reason that more mundane research tends to work better is that groundbreaking work is often hard to publish (and get support/funding for), particularly if it isn't completely solid and seems to contradict or supersede established theory or practice.

However, if you are choosing between multiple projects that all seem doable within the allotted time frame, picking the one with higher positive impact on the field (and/or elsewhere) may be a good approach.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by JamesBarney on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:20PM (#24054616)
Hmm this is different than my experience when my co workers had kids. Usually their productivity dropped due to being sleep deprived and not having the time on nights and weekends to come up to speed on any new technology.

Not that I minded, just saying that time constraints and sleep deprivation seemed to have the effect you'd except from them.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by iateanapple on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:26PM (#24055162)
> Usually their productivity dropped due to being sleep deprived

High levels of sleep deprivation is only common for the first few months.

> not having the time on nights and weekends to come up to speed on any new technology.

This tends to be a problem on teams that don’t properly evaluate costs of new technology and so churn like crazy for very minor productivity increases.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by quickthrower2 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:24PM (#24055580)
What's your productivity measure?

"I won't do that" can be worth $100k.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by keithnz on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:39PM (#24055277)
it wasn't about coworkers.... when people are working they often get paid the same no matter what their productivity is, so the motivations are different
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by hprotagonist on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:41PM (#24055290)
grad students and coworkers have very different priorities.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by alfonsodev on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:19PM (#24055104)
productivity at work is harder to measure than academic achievements, also different setup and motivations in play.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by ColanR on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:26PM (#24052989)
> What's the minimum I need to do to get out of here? Not, "What amazing interesting thing could I explore?"

I totally get it, but it makes me sad. That line, right there, probably explains why it's so few people who actually get to make the big discoveries.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by cacois on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @04:31PM (#24054192)
This rings so true to me. I got engaged during the last 6 months of my PhD student tenure, and lo and behold, I defended my thesis in the same month we got married. In the same vein as above, the added perspective and fire under me resulted in a number of novel solutions to problems that probably would have been major issues in the past, including a full change in direction of my research conclusions after realizing a substantial issue in the practical application of the technology.

I credit my now wife with the (passive) motivation to shave at least 6-12 months off my time in grad school.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by bigfudge on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:26PM (#24055166)
This happened to me. I typed the last paragraph of my thesis shortly after my wife went into in labour. It was very satisfying to hear it printing while I was filling the birthing pool in our living room!
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by firstplacelast on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:47PM (#24056089)
This is so spot on. I work for a biotech start-up that is obviously very research intensive. It's amazing to see the CEO, who has an undergrad in bio and an MBA, corral the PhD researchers and get them on track.

He understands about 40% as much about the biology, yet he's very good at getting people to drop/trim things that are not going to be worthwhile. He often adds tons of constraints that allow our researchers to hone in on what's going to drive the company forward instead of languishing in a million possibilities.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by QuercusMax on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:31PM (#24052381)
Before I got engaged to my wife(who was a year ahead of me in college) I had plans to do some kind of individualized honors project across 2 or 3 different majors (physics / math / CS).

I very quickly found myself reprioritizing how quickly I could graduate and find a job (since my wife's field didn't have many lucrative career prospects).

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by chrisseaton on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @03:16PM (#24053466)
Lol my wife had a baby while I was doing my PhD... was a less-than-ideal way to structure your life I'll admit. Do not recommend.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by ummwhat on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:41AM (#24059222)
You've convinced me that finding a wife would be a great move for my productivity right now.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by benibela on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:26PM (#24065187)
Dating is also very time consuming

That is why I did not do any dating during my PhD

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mensetmanusman on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:29PM (#24054691)
This was me, had a 1 year old at my thesis defense on Mass Ave :D
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by foepys on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:30PM (#24051576)
> Turns out when you're desperate -- and many grad students can attest to this -- a resourcefulness that you never thought you'd had kicks in

This is getting millions of students through high school, college, and university every year.

Everybody has at least one thing they pushed back for way too long and then developed almost super-human-like abilities to do it. Doesn't guarantee a good grade, though.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by pvarangot on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:18PM (#24052883)
In my humble experience this force of human will also gets early stage startups a second chance or saves them from sudden death regularly.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by jjeaff on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:05PM (#24055461)
Good on you for doing the right thing. We have far too little thinking like this in the world.

It reminds me of a story I heard from a businessman that was walking with an associate down the street. He stopped at one of those old metal newspaper dispenser machines to buy a paper. For those that don't know, the way they work is once you have put in your quarter the machine opens up and all the papers are just stacked in there.

His associate asked him to grab a newspaper for him. So he pulled out one paper, closed the machine and put in another quarter and then pulled out another. The associate asked, "Why didn't you just grab a second paper for free? It's just a quarter." The businessman's response was, "If I'm willing to sacrifice my integrity for a quarter, how much easier will it be to sacrifice it when something serious is on the line?"

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by philsnow on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:18AM (#24058417)
Luke 16:10-11

> 10 “He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.

> 11 If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches?

It's right there in the gospels, plain as day, and yet I agree with you that there's far too little thinking like this in the world, even among people who claim to be "Christians".

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by dmch-1 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:25PM (#24054668)
My laptop broke down just hours before I had to submit the thesis. It was the day of the deadline. I did have printed copies of the thesis (I had to submit printed copies), however I discovered bad typos on the front page. But, my laptop was down with the only digital version in it. In the end, I corrected the typos using a photocopier. I overlayed the typos with corrections on cut out pieces of paper, and photocopied. It was quite a struggle, but I made it!
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by sadfev on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:29PM (#24051568)
Your comment is a lifeline to me in this difficult time.

Why are we not resourceful in normal time?

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by gandalf013 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:56PM (#24051931)
Hobbes: Do you have an idea for your project yet?

Calvin: No, I'm waiting for inspiration. You can't turn on creativity like a faucet. You have to be in the right mood.

Hobbes: What mood is that?

Calvin: Last-minute panic.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mordymoop on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:33PM (#24053065)
The “point” of gradual school should be taking long walks with friends from completely different departments, talking about abstract ideas that aren’t related to your work at all. Maybe later in the shower you realize some subtle connection to your work that gives you an idea for an innovation, but maybe not. The point of graduate school is play. The switch from “play” to “product” is difficult but necessary. Both phases are important to the budding PhD. You need to demonstrate the ability to think creatively AND the ability to process that creativity into a deliverable. That’s the value of a PhD. If you’re interested in a focused grind to a specified finish line, skip graduate school.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by DrAwdeOccarim on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:01PM (#24056194)
I agree with you and I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone else make this point. Graduate school, and to a lesser extent post doc, is when you're supposed to dilly dally. Of course at the time it doesn't quite feel like that, but you are paid a meagre wage for a reason--to survive, but to not be comfortable. No extra money to go party, travel, etc. The devotion to the craft is supposed to be an almost pious experience. Even though it's simple, it is an incredible luxury most have never and will never get to experience (only a small percentage of the world obtains or even attends grad school for a PhD). With an eye on "getting out", you miss out on part of the beauty. I had many contemporaries through my studies like that. They were always stressed out and pushing to get home at 5pm, unlike us slackers who hung around and discussed tangential things but always with an eye toward connecting the dots. The ones who really excelled post grad school were the ones with vision and drive, not just drive alone, and the former always hung around shooting the shit because they appreciated the value derived from informal, idle chat.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mensetmanusman on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:29PM (#24056366)
One of my colleagues was in grind mode and switched to a 6 day life week by living 28 hour days so that he could be on certain machines all night when normal humans were sleeping.

Yeah he burned out quickly and left with a masters.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by Enginerrrd on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:41PM (#24051744)
I wish I knew the answer to this. When everything is totally screwed up and on fire and I need to get something done by 5:00 today that would normally take a week and a half, by God, it becomes apparent every millimeter of fat that can be trimmed and I can usually scrape together what's needed by then. Then the deadline is over and I get a similar project the next day and it's back to taking 5 days to finish.

There are real quality differences between the two scenarios, but they aren't nearly as bad as what you'd think they are. The reality is that I can just work a lot more efficiently when stressed. If I could do that all the time I'd be able to work 3 hours a day and remain as productive.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by dleslie on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:34PM (#24051643)
It's not typically sustainable to operate at such high levels of stress, but the stress brings with it a myriad of hormones and behavioural adaptions that, for some people, aid in sustaining focus and effort.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by YeGoblynQueenne on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:34PM (#24051639)
Because in normal time we spend most of our time reading HN rather than working on our urgent stuff.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by infogulch on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:14PM (#24052152)
Whelp that's my signal to get back to work.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @03:38PM (#24053696)
It’s selection bias. There are probably far more instances where rushing through causes problems than there are where rushing through doesn’t.
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by Blackadderz on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:38PM (#24055688)
My supervisor would often say: Don't rush, we don't have time.

Funny because he was often the reason we had to do the last minute rush :)

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by BrandoElFollito on Saturday August 08, 2020 @01:54PM (#24093651)
I had a similar doubt in my thesis (physics).

I wrote a special chapter where I discussed my results with myself and ended up suggesting someone takes a closer look if interested.

The jury was initially 6 people, 1 refused to review a thesis where the candidate discusses with himself because it breaks tradition. The others were quite happy, with one of them referring to my discussion and thanking me for the time she gained with it and which allowed her to spend more time with friends.

For some small issues it is sometimes better to tell it upfront and highlight hiw genius the rest of the thesis is.

Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by jvvw on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:28AM (#24058155)
I discovered that the proof of a fundamental proposition in my maths PhD thesis had a mistake in it two weeks before my viva, after I had submitted. Not sure if that was a better or worse time to discover it! After a rather stressful few days, I managed to reprove it and took the correct proof along to the viva. The examiners were 'well, the result was obviously correct so we weren't worried about it'!
Re:Math Overflow users resolve PhD thesis crisis by mjklin on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:29PM (#24052362)
The book “Gödel, Escher, Bach” was printed with a special process only available at one printer far away from where Hofstadter was living, and was extremely time consuming. At the last minute the whole thing had to be redone, so he had to get on a plane, print a few pages, then fly back to his job. This took several months. (He talks about it in the 20th anniversary edition.)