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Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:00PM (#24044493)
At this point, I don't care about the effectiveness. It is a sign of respect for those of us who have lost family and friends as a result of this global pandemic with what will amount to millions dead over the next 1-2 years. It is a very visible sign that shows that you care about yourself and the people around you.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by tetrometal on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:08PM (#24044566)
I'm very, very pro-mask; I'm optimistic that getting people to wear them could drop R0 << 1 and bring an end to this. That said, it seems unethical to me to mandate (read: enforce with fine/imprisonment) it for the purpose of ... what sounds like virtue signaling?
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by thu2111 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @04:39AM (#24047920)
The scales fall from tetrometal's eyes .... yes, a huge amount of the discussion around masks is pure virtue signalling.

That's why there's this huge focus on masks stopping the spread by pre-symptomatic people, which is a highly dubious and never-before tried idea, for which basically no reliable evidence exists (masks pre-COVID being intended to stop you getting sick, not other people), and which is an absolutely pure form of virtue signalling. It's literally a highly visible sign that someone is suffering discomfort for someone else's health, except, that only works if you believe it's actually true.

Look at the Nordics. In Sweden there's no mask requirement because the epidemic is disappearing. In Norway they pointed out that given the tiny number of infected people, even if you assume masks work perfectly, 200,000 people would need to wear a mask constantly to stop one new infection. And this is a virus with an IFR of about 0.1% so you end up needing millions of people to wear masks constantly to stop just a single death, almost certainly of a person very close to the end of their life anyway.

The numbers just don't work, at all, once the epidemic has faded away. And as Sweden and other places shows it can fade away without any mask requirements.

Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:03AM (#24050676)
Masks are less important, if people socially distance and practice good hygiene.

If you don't give the virus a chance to spread, it cannot spread.

The problem is that in the US and elsewhere, people cannot seem to follow the social distancing and hygiene, so you need to find a way to physically distance people with masks and other protections.

To say that masks do not work, is untrue. There is a reason why doctors and others wear masks in their own professions.

By the way, when you say it is disappearing, that doesn't mean let the guard down. Look at what is happening in Vietnam. 100 days clean and they let their guard down and look at what is happening now.

Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by dysfunction on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:01PM (#24052668)
Sweden has far and away the highest death rate of the Nordics, over 11 times that of Norway. I really don't think the data supports your point. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by thu2111 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:39PM (#24062761)
Norway indeed basically hasn't had COVID. Perhaps they will when they have fully finished releasing their lockdown, or perhaps COVID is more like seasonal flu, which does hit some countries and not others for unexplained reasons every year.

However, the point stands. Sweden has not had particularly bad outcomes, being as it is in the middle of the pack, and with most deaths being in care homes where Sweden has many other severe problems, e.g. many staff who can't speak Swedish. In fact in one care home they ended up in a spot where none of the staff spoke Swedish causing problems for a resident who couldn't communicate with them to get food! So given Sweden's dependency on immigrant labour for care homes it's maybe not a surprise they've had problems protecting those homes. For the general population however, COVID has not been a problem.

Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @03:36PM (#24053671)
I don't even bother getting into death rate discussions any more because it is pointless.

You read the Survivors Groups on FB [0] and the real problem people aren't understanding is that this isn't quick death we need to worry about, it is the long term health effects that will lead to a lifetime of medical issues.

[0] https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVID19survivorcorps/

Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by nradov on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:15AM (#24046524)
That is magical thinking. SARS-CoV-2 is now endemic in the worldwide human population. Wearing masks in public for a few months won't change that reality.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:27PM (#24045552)
Wouldn't have to mandate it, if people would just do it...
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by gremlinsinc on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:27PM (#24044710)
Better idea, use positive reinforcement. Walmart, et al raise prices 15%. Mask wearers get 15% off. Everyone else pays full-price.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by baggy_trough on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:30PM (#24044726)
Sorry, illegal due to the ADA since some people can't wear masks.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by gremlinsinc on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:12PM (#24055512)
False. If a store makes accomodations, then you cannot use the ADA defense. Currently >95% of stores (maybe higher) have curbside pickup, so this excuse is dead in the water.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by arkitaip on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:41PM (#24044822)
Like who?
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by mensetmanusman on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:56PM (#24045712)
They have to mandate N95 masks indoors if it is indeed aerosol-based superspreader events.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by ghaff on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:11PM (#24044591)
Yeah, well I don't actually care about theater versus what's effective.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:26PM (#24045537)
I'm not sure I'd characterize it as theater. This isn't a play or performance, it is a global pandemic and people, including myself, are losing loved ones.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by ghaff on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:44PM (#24045646)
You wrote "I don't care about the effectiveness." So, yes, it's theater if you want to require things that don't actually do any good.
Re:One-third of New York’s small businesses may be gone forever by latchkey on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:35PM (#24046294)
It does do good. I said that I don't care about the effectiveness. That doesn't mean it isn't effective. Nor does it mean that you shouldn't wear one.