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Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by GenerocUsername on Monday August 03, 2020 @12:29PM (#24039827)
The more you know about a subject, the more false reporting you will find related to that subject.

Remember that next time you read news about something you are not already well versed in.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by tossthere on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:17PM (#24041323)
The first time the media reported on an event and subject where I knew more than them, I was in my late 20s (I think you have to be at least that old to know a lot about something ... could explain why younger people seem to have such blind faith in popular narratives).

I was absolutely shocked by the basic inaccuracy and skewed writing in literally every single story that was written, every single video that was recorded, everything.

I mean it was all complete and utter nonsense and bullshit. Basic facts, the names of people involved, their roles, the applicable laws, EVERYTHING was wrong EVERYWHERE.

They’ve reported on 3 more events I was deeply familiar with since then, different subjects/industries, same story. Everything is wrong everywhere.

They’re always wrong in the same way and for the same reasons: A more scandalous narrative, with more compelling villains and heroes. If a legal entity with a lot of money is involved, attribute the misinformation to another source so you won’t get sued.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by clarkmoody on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#24041981)
As someone involved in the Bitcoin space, I can relate.

Highly-technical subject + lots of nuance + financial journalism = absolute disaster for the truth.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by beerandt on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:04PM (#24051280)
They do the same thing for simple he said, she said, non-technical reporting.

Something being a complex topic doesn't help, but the problem often isn't one of not being able to understand, but choosing not to understand before even making an attempt.

Even when that's not the case, any professional needs to know the limits of their capabilities. Reporters that don't understand a subject shouldn't be reporting on it (without help, at least). That they do is a reflection in their professional judgement.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by tossAfterUsing on Monday August 03, 2020 @05:50PM (#24043870)
love ur dashboard bro :)
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by PakG1 on Monday August 03, 2020 @12:54PM (#24040158)
Yes, sure, but this all unfortunately feeds into the motivations of conspiracy theorists. Maybe it is what it is, but what can we do to stop the wave of noncritical thinking washing over the Internet, where people insist that they are the only wise ones? Are we just doomed? I realize that media has lost its credibility in the eyes of many, I just wish that there was a good amount of high-quality critical thinking to make up for the lack of reliable information, rather than the many low-quality conspiracy theories I'm seeing.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by nickalaso on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @12:06AM (#24046470)
I've always felt that conspiracy theorists provide a certain value to the internet. They are almost the vaccine itself to misinformation. The foreign pathogen that teaches the body to defend itself from a worse foe.

If you can't understand, and also form a series of arguments for yourself, as to why the tin foil hat conspiracy theorist is wrong, why the earth almost certainly isn’t flat, or run by a cabal of shapeshifting alien lizard people, 5G, etc. how are you going to respond to the more insidiously cogent arguments about other more important things that are just as wrong but harder to spot?

I personally credit my upbringing by my religious parents into creationism (the concept that the earth is only 6 thousand years old and evolutionary science is a conspiracy against God.) as what ultimately led to my development of critical thinking and healthy skepticism, as I dug myself out of that belief system and deconverted in my late teens.

I remember feeling so deeply and irradeemably stupid, for being so completely convinced without any reason or evidence. And then, as a result, feeling so desperate for a specific formula or system of thought that could let me avoid this kind of personal failing in the future.

Which led me to listening to debates, learning about things like burden of proof, and the preponderance of evidence. And the very simple and straightforward concept of spot checking whether a stated “truth” used by someone in an argument is actually valid, or if they are lying to bolster their points, expecting (correctly, unfortunately) that the vast majority of their audience will never even check to see if they are telling the truth or a lie.

How else are you going to teach someone to think critically without showing them the examples of what a bad argument is, and how to respond to it rationally? Tell them to just trust the “good” sources? That’s arguably worse than telling them nothing at all.

It certainly is largely the fault of our garbage public schooling system, but the existing penchant to call for the banning and censcoring of stupid conspiracies online as if it were some sort of panacea for stupidity itself is certainly not helping the problem.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by SnotJockey on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:57AM (#24047408)
I'm all for conspiracies when they don't cause harm, you think the earth is flat and chemtrails control your mind good for you buddy, now I know not to trust your judgement. But once you've go nevermaskers and antivaxers running around infecting and killing people, or pizzagaters shooting up restaurants the hands off approach becomes a public health issue. Conspiracy theorists have gone from benign to damn dangerous to have around.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by personalhuman on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:07PM (#24054512)
It seems to me that conspiracy theories have also evolved from being mostly apolitical to being very based lately. It could be argued that the act of voting when being so blatantly misinformed and misled is itself a danger to the public.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by schemy on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:30PM (#24042246)
Your conspiracy theory is a conspiracy fact when you think about peoples motivations.

Take the current virus. We realize that the republican version of 'it's a hoax and everything is fine' is a lie. But so is the democrat version of 'you need to never leave your house or you're a murderer'.

The simple fact is that without having solid numbers for:

1). The true infection rate.

2). The true age-adjusted mortality rate.

3). The asymptomatic r0 rate.

Any policy anyone suggests tells you more about the person suggesting it than about how effective it will be. It could be that reality is closer to the republican version, or the democrat one. But without a lot more science that no one is doing we will not know until decades down the line when people start digging up corpses and testing for the virus and finally doing some basic statistics.

And that's before we even look at what the economic impact is of the virus.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by kaicianflone on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:35PM (#24044775)
I don't think it's a democratic perspective to be on the safer than sorry "version of the virus".
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by GenerocUsername on Saturday August 15, 2020 @05:32PM (#24172594)
But the safer side is a political battle.

Saving lives by preventing viral spread sounds good until the economic and societal damage of the preventative measures lead to more harm than they prevented.

Funny enough many of this and other virus worst symptoms are the bodies natural response to the virus. Inflammation for instance is the bodies response to damage, bit it can in turn cause more damage than the original source of issue.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by slg on Monday August 03, 2020 @12:58PM (#24040250)
No one can be an expert on everything. That is true for journalists too. Unless a reporter has a very narrow beat, they are going to be forced to report on topics in which they are not fully knowledgeable. This often results in misunderstandings or downright falsities, but on large they generally get it right. We should certainly hold journalistic organizations and reporters to a high standard of accuracy, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water because they make an occasional mistake.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by stingraycharles on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:24PM (#24040625)
I consider the statement of the parent to be more about not blindly believing everything the media reports, because it’s most likely a simplification and the truth is more nuanced.

I personally don’t consider it the journalists’ fault at all, otherwise we would just end up with an academic journal. It is important, however, to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism when reading the news.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by slg on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:33PM (#24040772)
I agree, but that is not in line with the comment that kicked off this thread with this:

>They just don't get it. People are sick of their BS and they need to just comp to it and change. The days of BSing people are over.

There is a clear difference between reserved skepticism you are talking about and the "FAKE NEWS!" type rhetoric that has grown over the last half decade.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by hectorr1 on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:22PM (#24041383)
While this may have been an unfortunate reality in previous eras, today we can get much better information from researchers and practitioners.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by ardy42 on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:50PM (#24041767)
> While this may have been an unfortunate reality in previous eras, today we can get much better information from researchers and practitioners.

I don't think that's actually true. It's probably most true with science reporting, but does anyone think reading the firehose of specialist research output is a practical alternative to journalism for a general reader? Filtering and summarization are important functions when dealing quantities of information larger than an individual can handle alone. IIRC, even specialist research groups have paper reading circles to filter research papers in their own fields.

Then there's everything else. For a lot of stuff, you'd just be wading through PR and rumor without much ability to dig past that. For some news topics, like foreign affairs for instance, I'm not even sure where you'd even find timely, raw information to replace journalism about it.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:25AM (#24046929)
If the occassional mistakes were such a rare event, how did the meme of "Gell-Mann Amnesia" had the chance to develop?
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by adolph on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:22PM (#24040598)
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”

― Michael Crichton

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/65213-briefly-stated-the-ge...

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by jancsika on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:28PM (#24041473)
“Briefly stated, the Mell-Gann Memory effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Melley's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them[1].

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper somehow has exactly the same quantity and quality of errors about Palestine as the baloney you just read. You turn the page and vastly overestimate what you think you can critique based on your vast knowledge of show business.”

― Crichael Michton

[1] based on evidence ascertained through the Mell-Gann Memory effect

Edit: clarification

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by javajosh on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:14PM (#24040478)
>The more you know about a subject, the more false reporting you will find related to that subject.

This sounds like it should be a named law. Like Amdahl's Law or Moore's Law, or Sturgeon's Law!

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by antiframe on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:50PM (#24040973)
I've heard it called the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect, but not sure if it's caught on.

> Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward-reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story-and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.

> - Michael Crichton, Why Speculate (26 April 2002)

From Wikiquote Murray Gell-Mann https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann

Edit: Remove markdown formatting.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by moreorless on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:31PM (#24040728)
This exactly.