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Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by bluedevil2k on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:51AM (#24037733)
> trivialising of marriage

Maybe we've taken marriage too seriously for hundreds/thousands of years, and we're finally progressing as a global society to realize that till-death-do-us-part might be too big of a commitment for some 20-somethings. After all, what's really the difference between being married and living with your significant other besides some laws that are based on the old views of marriage.

(Granted, with kids things get tricky, but making sure parents stick around and help raise kids to me seems rather independent on whether a couple was married or not - seems more to do with someone's inner beliefs)

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by NateEag on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:26PM (#24040662)
The obvious difference is that in Western traditions, a married couple has explicitly vowed to stay with one another through thick and thin, until death separates you.

If you trust your partner to keep their word, there is comfort in knowing you are a team, no matter what crazy stuff happens.

If your partner refuses to make that promise (that promise being what makes it a marriage, IMO), well, you might want to re-evaluate how much you trust them and why.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by nitrogen on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:53PM (#24041801)
History has shown that a sizable chunk of those promises were either lies, or unrealistic. Many who refuse to marry do so out of an acknowledgement of how effed up the marriages they have seen are. People who are truly untrustworthy are just as likely to lie about their level of commitment to a relationship anyway.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by NateEag on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:01PM (#24041910)
Yes. People are mostly not trustworthy.

Refusing to commit yourself seems more like perpetuating that problem than addressing it, to me.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by waterhouse on Monday August 03, 2020 @04:13PM (#24042778)
Consider the "unrealistic" part. How certain can you be that it will work out? Do you think all marriage-ending issues are foreseeable?

One source tells me that 41% of first marriages end in divorce. Divorce today is not generally considered a pleasant process, yet they go through with it, which is evidence that there was something seriously wrong with the relationship. Put differently, 59% of marriages were sufficiently correct choices.

Suppose couples spent an additional year on scrutiny before getting married. How much would that improve the success ratio? To 70%? 80%? What about the remaining 20%? Once they discover their choice was sufficiently wrong to want to go through with one of today's divorces, what should they do? Stick it out no matter how bad it gets? Really? Or if they do divorce, then what have you achieved? If they delayed by three years and got to 90%, would that be worth it?

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by wink on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:52AM (#24049012)
I don't get your example. The 41% figure says nothing about the partners being together before at all, or for how many years.

Also if you've been together for 5 years and then marry, why would that change the chance to be divorced after another 5 years versus marrying after 2 and then divorcing after 8?

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by NateEag on Monday August 03, 2020 @05:41PM (#24043803)
I cannot guarantee that a marriage will not end in divorce, no.

I do not think all marriage-ending issues are foreseeable. There are often red flags that are flagrantly ignored, but things like substance abuse and spousal abuse are not always predictable. They can begin unexpectedly well into a marriage.

I do not think you should always "stick it out". Keeping promises does not have the same moral weight as many bigger issues.

The obvious example is abuse - the victim should get out, then get a divorce (my understanding is that abusers rarely change their stripes, but are very prone to appear to do so long enough to lure their victims back).

I don't advocate for huge delays before marrying. I don't think that really helps a lot. Going really fast is not wise, but waiting for years does not magically solve problems.

Instead, I advocate for a totally different approach to dating than most US inhabitants take.

Dating should be about figuring out if you should get married, not about having fun or impressing the other person. The last two goals form a tiny, tiny subset of the first one, and I can't tell that most people I have seen dating are aware of that.

There's a phrase I love from the recent Picard show - "the way of absolute candor". When we first met, we engaged in something not unlike it (we called it "brutal honesty"), and it was a lot of what drew us to each other.

While our marriage has been full of hardships and difficulties (and, yes, plenty of surprises), we both had a decent idea what we were signing up for before we said our vows. That was largely due to the way we approached dating, and our extreme honesty with each other.

So far, we have stuck with it. At this point I have a hard time seeing what could break us apart, apart from major personality and behavioral shifts due to neurological failures (injury, mental illness, etc).

That's in large part due to how much work we did before getting married, both on the relationship and on solving difficult, ugly problems together. Marriage, especially parenting, is mostly about doing hard, unpleasant work together.

God / the universe helped us on that front, by dropping multiple hard things on us while dating. One example would be the time her apartment got destroyed in a flash flood weeks after she moved so we could live in the same area and see each other regularly.

That sucked, but boy did we get to understand each other better. Taught us a lot more about how married life might go than playing video games or going out for French cuisine.

Not saying you should destroy your girlfriend's apartment to see how she copes, but you can seek out hard, frustrating, meaningful things to do together regularly while dating, instead of a steady diet of all fun, all the time.

You can also be rigorously honest up front - my wife had as good an understanding of my failings as I could give her within weeks of meeting each other (many of the unpleasant surprises we've had in our marriage have come down to things we didn't realize about ourselves, so both parties were surprised by the discovery).

Take those approaches and add a reasonable amount of time before marriage (we dated for a year then were engaged for six months), and I think you could significantly lower the divorce rate.

Granted, you'd probably lower the marriage rate a lot too. That might not be such a bad outcome, though.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by thrden on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:14AM (#24038004)
Even if we set aside any potential spiritual, or child-rearing value. Marriage is a very important institution in helping people achieve economic mobility, it increases your household income significantly, as well as seriously reducing your cost of living. Anecdotally, my cost of living was drastically reduced when my girlfriend and I moved in together (thereby splitting a 1BR), however given that we aren't married we individually have to save a good amount of money in cash accounts in case of a breakup. If we were married, we could reduce our cash savings by 50% and instead invest that money into the open market. Moreover, we would be far more likely to take care of the other financially if one went to school if we were married. Marriage, and the commitment it entails changes the attitudes of individuals towards each other by ensuring that we can plan for a combined future. all that exists outside of societally constructed benefits like joint taxation and healthcare.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by bluedevil2k on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:24AM (#24038125)
But all your examples of "planning for the future as a married couple" could immediately be for naught if one of you decides to divorce. No different than if your girlfriend decides to move out. Economic mobility could be achieved with an official document saying "You're Married" or without it. It's about the commitment to each other, a commitment that can be as strong or as weak as the two people are willing to make it.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by mellosouls on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:33AM (#24038201)
But all your examples of "planning for the future as a married couple" could immediately be for naught if one of you decides to divorce. No different than if your girlfriend decides to move out.

Marriage is not girlfriend/boyfriend.

It's far more serious, and making it a commitment to be contemplated deeply before entering - and not easily breakable - is the whole point of highlighting the problem of trivialising it.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by bluedevil2k on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:05AM (#24038588)
> It's far more serious, and making it a commitment to be contemplated deeply before entering - and not easily breakable

Marriage is rooted in religion, for better or worse, and these thoughts about making marriage some unbreakable for-life bond are based on religious beliefs hundreds of years old. Catholics couldn't divorce, ever! We live in a more enlightened age, one where religious thoughts have less to do with forging our societal beliefs. Can't we progress with our thoughts on marriage as well? Marriage for life would mean for many an unhappy and unfulfilling life. Perhaps a life of violence or depression. Is that we want to force people into? A life without choice, a life without happiness?

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by nobodyandproud on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:07PM (#24040391)
I think this is a shallow analysis. In the past and in many societies it’s fair to say that religion and social order were one and the same.

So it’s not wrong to say marriage has its roots in religion, but the cause to create marriage hasn’t gone away even if religion isn’t a factor: Can you imagine how difficult it was for a single parent (especially women) to raise a child alone, a few millenia ago? I think it’s fair to say that it caused major problems.

Even today raising children is still extremely difficult. Raising a productive citizen is another order of magnitude of difficulty.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by com2kid on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:57PM (#24041865)
> Marriage is rooted in religion, for better or worse,

Around a billion people, give or take, in China would disagree with you.

Heck Japan isn't exactly a religious country.

With a few exceptions, the concept of marriage coincides with agricultural societies.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by bluedevil2k on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:06PM (#24041965)
What's the Chinese view on divorce? (Genuine question, I have no idea)
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by com2kid on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:31PM (#24042260)
Not 100% sure, just know through a few friends that it seems very shameful for both parties involves.

Also, parents invest a lot in their child's marriage, e.g. downpayment for a house, car, etc, for their child (singular!), so that adds even more pressure to "make things work".

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by User23 on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:55PM (#24041045)
Catholics still can't divorce, ever. Obviously the secular power can cease to recognize the marriage, but they are just men, and what God has joined man can't sunder.

Ecclesiastical annulments are grossly misunderstood by most Catholics and non-Catholics alike[1]. They are not "Catholic divorce." And yes, the tribunal system can be gamed, but if you actually believe you should realize that God isn't going to be fooled. And if you don't believe then why do you even care what the Church thinks?

[1] See below reply

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by vkou on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:39PM (#24041614)
> And if you don't believe then why do you even care what the Church thinks?

Because your friends/neighbours/relatives may be Catholics, and you may care about your appearances.

In my experience with religious folks, keeping God happy is not the sole driving force behind most of their lives to the exclusion of all else. It's a framework around their lives, but not always priority #1.

Given that, annulments are essentially a catholic divorce, with a little bit of magic added.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by sukilot on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:20AM (#24038800)
"religion" is a legal system f government that isn't grounded in a geographically-defined military. It can do good or bad just like a political system.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by balfirevic on Monday August 03, 2020 @04:34PM (#24043052)
You can't legislate away the fact that people stop wanting to have anything to do with each other, in spite of being 100% convinced that it's not going to happen to them.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by op03 on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:56AM (#24039358)
Well intentioned comment, but that works when people share the same optimizing view towards life.

Think about how many people within your own extended family do this? Take a guess, deliver this talk to them and track through life how many follow the path.

We chimps display a wide spectrum of Personality traits and an even wider spectrum of Needs, which are constantly changing through life and the events that effect it. Dangerous to assume whatever system you have accepted will be accepted by all.

Its easy to come up with all kinds of theories about "what works" and "how things should be" but that is usually based on our limited awareness of the spectrum.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by balfirevic on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:33AM (#24039011)
> If we were married, we could reduce our cash savings by 50% and instead invest that money into the open market.

How come you suddenly need 50% less emergency cash per person just because you're married?

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by waterhouse on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:44PM (#24042420)
I'm guessing they want enough emergency cash to last them for N months if all income disappeared, and that their expenses are dominated by rent and other things whose costs don't increase with a second person.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by balfirevic on Monday August 03, 2020 @04:27PM (#24042964)
The original comment was comparing cash savings in situation where the couple lives together but is not married vs. when they marry. It specifically mentioned the possibility of breakup before marriage, but people divorce all the time and if you get into that situation you'll need those savings.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by yencabulator on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:13AM (#24038705)
You're not describing marriage, you're describing a dedicated long-term relationship. Marriage is some religious nonsense on top of that.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by sukilot on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:18AM (#24038770)
Marriage is a contract with dozens to hundreds of legal implications.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by yencabulator on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:27PM (#24045554)
Sure, and a prenup is a contract that nullifies the bits you don't want.
Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by uhguvku on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:17PM (#24042105)
The current concept of marriage is very recent, maybe 200-300 years old. Marriage was never romantic but it was a political and business deal. Historically, very few people married their lovers. Powerful men married powerful women and then they had harems. Not only that wives often recruited younger women for their husbands' harems.

Most peasants were married through arranged marriages that benefitted their families.

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by SomeHacker44 on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:20AM (#24038808)
Personally I think marriage should be a la carte. Choose which legal benefits and obligations you want, what timeline (renewable) and so forth.

The problem is that the legal one size fits all rule of marriage doesn't fit most. And, that size differs from country to country and even within countries (eg US states).

Re:Wakaresaseya: private agents hired to end relationships by 52-6F-62 on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:18PM (#24044646)
For those reasons and others my partner and I haven’t married, but we file our taxes here in Canada (and are legally considered, in Ontario specifically) as a “common-law” couple. We wear rings and have decided on what works for us, between us.

It’s working quite well for us for now. We’ve been together longer than any of my old, married (and since divorced) friends have.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6532711/common-law-vs-marriage/