News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by rawfan on Monday August 03, 2020 @05:37AM (#24035725)
I just want Netflix for journalism. I don't want a super expensive sub to a dozen papers. I want one subscription, they all should be included (maybe offer different tiers if you are an arse) and it shouldn't be more than $20/month.

Go.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by freddie_mercury on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:03AM (#24035901)
Why do you assume that $20 is enough to support multiple newspapers?

That's nearly how much the New York Times ($17/month) alone costs and they lost money every year in recent history until 2018 and are only now turning the corner as a business.

On the surface I'd assume that actual journalism -- not just clickbait opinion pieces -- is going to cost you way more than $20 a month if you want access to multiple sources.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by nikol_w on Monday August 03, 2020 @08:41AM (#24036961)
This is the fallacy that led to the current broken model.

Suppose that instead of paying $17 a month to get the NYT, I pay $20 a month to get that and five other similarly high quality news sources. Does this make it harder to fund journalism? Not at all. The NYT now has (for argument's sake) six times as many subscribers, all paying slightly more than six times as much. So do the five other organizations. And, since the consumer has a much better proposition, people who previously weren't paying will sign up and the total pot will be even bigger. Since all the costs are fixed costs, it doesn't matter if everyone reads six times as many articles. But they won't. They will read slightly more, but benefit much more by having a bigger choice.

This is what we saw with Spotify. You pay about the price of buying one album a month. But you get to listen to much, much, more. Even if you only listen to a few songs a day, the utility of being able to choose from anything is huge. Of course, some people used to spend a lot more each month on physical music. But lots of other people used to spend nothing, since if you only had $15 a month, you could't get much for it.

One problem is that the NYT, the the FT, the New Yorker, etc, each assume that they are uniquely trusted and loved by their audience. But that's only true because of selection bias. No one who values their output to the tune of $3 a month is part of their readership.

In the music industry, the huge monopolists could force adoption of the new model. But they're also the reason musicians don't make much money, since they are now supporting two sets of middlemen - the tech companies and the 'record labels'.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by freddie_mercury on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:58PM (#24046086)
> The NYT now has (for argument's sake) six times as many subscribers, all paying slightly more than six times as much.

There have been many many efforts to have sites that provide access to multiple news sources for a single price. Apple News, PressReader, Magzster, and more.

Newspapers and their corporate owners have ample data on your claim that low single prices massively increase the audience. I'm guessing your claim is not supported by the real world data and that's why they haven't adopted the model.

After all, only 16% of people have said they are willing to pay any amount of money to read the news. That's a total market of 40 million people. The NY Times has 6 million subscribers, so they've already captured 15% of the market. Your claim that they could capture 6x means this mythical service would capture 90% of the total available market.

Which just seems...implausible on the surface. Netflix doesn't even have remotely that penetration -- only 51% -- and they've been around forever, have massive brand recognition, have tons of money, have unique properties to draw viewers, etc, etc.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by dragandj on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:06AM (#24037238)
Let's not forget that these music services are possible because the authors are paid peanuts, i.e, almost nothing for their work (other than a handful of the most popular chart topping acts).

The thing with journalism is that you can't rely that much on back catalogs and artistic enthusiasm. An indie band might share all their music on Spotify for $1.37 a month revenue for the love of music, but that $1.37 will not buy you much of quality reporting...

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by summerlight on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:18AM (#24037383)
> The NYT now has (for argument's sake) six times as many subscribers, all paying slightly more than six times as much.

Not really, there must be an intersection between them and we don't know how large it is. And I don't believe there's many other magazine/news sites as successful as NYT so the revenue number is more likely 3x~4x even assuming no intersection and 100% conversion rate.

The real issue is that traditional media's competitive edge was its infrastructure for content distribution, not the content itself. Sadly, people willing to pay money for high quality journalism seems minority so its budget is. Otherwise, ads-powered yellow journalism cannot be thriving as is. In this landscape, there's simply not much incentive to pursue such aggregated subscription model for media itself. Maybe there can be suitable business models for aggregators like FB or Google, but I don't think this is what you really want.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by benrbray on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:41AM (#24039116)
I think the point is that a cheaper subscription model would bring in a lot of new subscribers that were previously paying nothing.

There's a quote that goes along the lines of "those who don't read the news are uninformed; those who read the news are misinformed".

For me, I see NYT as one of the more credible new sources, but it has a history of bias against reforms to wealth inequality, which is an important issue for me. Accordingly, I can't justify using it as my sole source of news, and I can't afford to pay more than $20/mo total for this sort of expense.

So, an option to pay $20/mo for access to 5-6 different news sources would be really appealing to me. Until then, I'll keep using my 3 free articles / month from the random news outlets that get posted to HN/reddit.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by CM30 on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:11AM (#24035953)
Don't many services that cost far more than journalism to produce charge $20 a month now? Netflix is $13, Disney+ is $7 a month, Xbox Game Pass is $10 a month...

And those movies, TV shows and games cost many millions of dollars to produce. Why is journalism so much more expensive when journalists likely aren't earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and spending millions on investigations?

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by kappuchino on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:58AM (#24036245)
On comparison: Take the movie "die hard". Since its creation 1988 (i feeld old) it has been rewatched time and time again and been paid for by nearly every channel and streaming service. Now look at an newspaper edition from christmas day 1988. Yes, it still costs less, but you would agree that it was already "old news" a couple of days after and rereading it is not really worth something to you, is it? One invisible cost in journalism is research and failure. I had a boss who humorously said "just research things that we will print", but in my area of experise in journalism - data and investigative reporting - more or less half of the research is a dead end, isn't interesting enough or has issues that make reporting unadvisable. Yes, sports has a better qouta, but has also taken over by bots writing the articles. Also: Can we agreee, that independence can only be achived with decent pay? It is an issue in other areas of work as well, but this is not about those. Journalists need to be paid well and (mostly) independent of their output or you already weaken/poison the base for independent news. And this scales more than you think. Now multiply this to have competition in journalism (like, gasp!, multiple newspapers/mags on the newsstand for one city) and it gets really, really expensive. All that cost was hidden when the only way to locally advertise was in paper (before the internet).
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by jariel on Monday August 03, 2020 @08:58AM (#24037148)
"That's nearly how much the New York Times ($17/month) "

With no unit-cost, volume is a big deal for such content.

So if Times got 3x subs, they could cut their prices by 1/2 no problem. Car companies can't do that.

So creating a good marketplace with demand and volume can do this.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by awalton on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:39AM (#24037612)
They've got somewhere north of 3 million online subscribers paying $17/month. It's not Netflix numbers, but it's still more than $600M/year - about a third of their claimed revenue. Their writers are salaried at $110K/year on average and probably around 1300 writers (given data from 2016), so that's about half their digital income for salaries.

There's also the economies of price here that's often neglected - if they charged less, more people could and would pay for it. At $17/month they can forget it, I'll get my news elsewhere. At $9.99/month, it becomes a consideration for me. At <$5/month, I'm almost definitely in; I give $4/month to Nintendo so I can play Animal Crossing with a few friends a couple times a month. I'd normally happily spend $5-10/month at a Starbucks on a mocha as an occasional treat (you know, if it weren't for the whole pandemic thing).

What I'm sure is really burning their income are holdovers from a bygone era - printing presses and their maintenance, prestigious billion dollar buildings in downtown New York City, and so on. There's no way the print side of the business is paying for itself anymore at the volume they're printing at... it's just time to let it go. And writers can work from literally anywhere... A curiously common refrain often heard here from tech workers.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by hootbootscoot on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:15AM (#24035974)
That actually is a great way to bring up how miserably the Netflix model treats content creators.

The $4 billion rich Netflix CEO says that artists should try harder if they don't want to starve (source, this same article we are discussing)

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by zaroth on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:45AM (#24037653)
The Netflix CEO is (mostly) rich due to equity holdings, a market value of future cash flow.

Netflix’s actual cash on the other hand has actually gone nearly 100% of revenue to content creators — they actually have taken out quite a lot of debt in order to create their content, because they think they can ultimately earn money on it over time.

But truly you should thank Netflix for ~$50 billion in content creation so far.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by KSteffensen on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:22PM (#24041398)
Article quotes the Spotify CEO, not the Netflix CEO.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by listenallyall on Monday August 03, 2020 @08:23AM (#24036789)
The absolute worst posts on HN start with "I just want..." and then selfishly lowball the cost of whatever it is they want.

Anyway, you've described a cable bundle model, not Netflix's model.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by sqrt17 on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:18AM (#24037387)
> selfishly lowball the cost of whatever it is they want.

if you asked a recording industry person in the CD age if 10$/month flatrate for music (as offered by Spotify, Google, Amazon, Apple) was a fair deal, they'd have said the same or worse.

The point is, there's enough people willing to pay something but now paying exactly 0$ and not willing to pay north of 200$/year. And we're still stuck at the "newspaper bundle" stage where publications that used to bundle articles into a mass-produced paper copy and distributing them want to use that same one-size-fits-all bundle for how they charge users, even if those same users would only ever read articles by one author on one topic.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by mmm_grayons on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:26AM (#24037464)
A customer saying, "My reservation price for the following good is $X." is not selfish. Information is easier to access and so, whether you agree with it, people are willing to pay less for information (including newspapers). We've seen many other "information services" get much cheaper due to this demand. The news media have simply been slow to change.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by hinkley on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:43PM (#24040889)

   The worst questions to ask an engineer start with, "why can't we just..."
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by bena on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:30AM (#24038179)
"Just". If I could get rid of that word, I would. "Just" is the tip of the iceberg. It often means the speaker has no idea how to implement or what it would take to implement.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by mistermann on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:46AM (#24039201)
Good point. There are a fair number of words and language forms that are often "tells" of how the person saying them conceptualized and overly simplifies complex scenarios.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by mythz on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:03AM (#24037196)
You likely want Apple News+ [1] at just under $10 USD /mo - a single cost for a la carte access to a large pool of publications, basically the only premium subscription model that's going to be able to gain mainstream adoption.

[1] https://www.apple.com/apple-news/

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by awalton on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:13AM (#24037323)
No, what I want is Google Reader back. And I know I'm far, far, far away from being alone on this. Just give me the text, not the videos and the horrible formatting and poor font choices and all of that bullshit - I'd gladly pay for it, if it still existed.

May it rest in peace.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by brendoelfrendo on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:27AM (#24038910)
Google Reader was just an RSS reader, and there are plenty of those available, both free and paid. RSS doesn't get you past pay walls, though.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by awalton on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:53AM (#24039312)
That's like saying "Google is just a search engine" and ignoring the fact that "to google" is now an English verb and the rest of the impact it has had on information availability in the world.

Reader was a synthesis of open web culture - it offered a hub of reading multiple streams of content in one formatted location, and it did so with the support of one of the largest companies on the earth with the ability to use its clout to affect change on other organizations and make that data available to them in the form they wanted. Google could have been the 800 pound gorilla of news publications a decade before Apple News even tried.

But they just, threw it away. That's what I want back - I don't care if it's RSS or some new fancy JSON-backed article exchange protocol - the transport layer and reader app itself is largely meaningless to me; the simple elegance of being able to read the news in one location without some designers notion of layout and overzealous marketers' idea of ad coverage, and having it be quick is much more powerful. No more 2-10MB garbage landfills to serve 20kb of textual information. No more fighting to make the content work on mobile - RSS was inherently responsive and accessibility-friendly.

The technological idea of federated content have largely died because Google decided it didn't want to support them, and nobody else - not Microsoft, not Apple, nobody - stepped up to take the mantle. It had a technological problem for Google - the fact that you could pick another reader meant that there was no instinctive centralization on Googles' service, unlike situations like AMP where they're literally the man in the middle.

And while Instant Articles and AMP are trying to fill that market gap, more often than not what I find replacing it is Twitter, which is comically filled with horrible misinformation and terrible sourcing practices that make it a haven of misinformation instead of... news. And that's a real damn shame.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by codydh on Monday August 03, 2020 @12:30PM (#24039832)
The point still stands that what Google Reader was and what you want is an RSS reader.

Unless I'm missing something, they never did anything unique to "use its clout to affect change on other organizations and make that data available to them in the form they wanted"—it was just an RSS reader, and what you've described is exactly how I use my reader of choice (Feedbin). Many modern offerings even offer a feature to pull the full text for articles where it's not included by default.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by 3pt14159 on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:07AM (#24037257)
The difference is that it doesn't just work in my browser. I easily pay $20 USD per month to not have to be shown a paywall when I click a link from HN, but that isn't what is being offered. I don't want to have to use their app. I like my browser.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by alpineidyll3 on Monday August 03, 2020 @08:52AM (#24037062)
In raw dollar terms this would undoubtedly >2x-3x the capital available to journalism as an industry. People who say (truthfully): "journalism needs more money" need to confront the reality that the current biz model doesn't work. Either we coerce Google news to tithe like Australia just did, or something like this sounds like a better solution than just letting journalism die.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by specialist on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:42AM (#24036470)
Hard pass on algorithmic recommenders.

I have always wanted human curation, filters, opinion.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by mmm_grayons on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:28AM (#24037492)
More importantly, news is the last place I want to be fed more of what I like.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by hugh-avherald on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:09AM (#24036288)
The problem with a model like Netflix for journalism is that it will take the same path Netflix did.
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by cbar_tx on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#24041990)
you mean get into the fictional entertainment business?
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by rvz on Monday August 03, 2020 @05:46AM (#24035782)
Apple News+?
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by chadcmulligan on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:00AM (#24037832)
Not sure how available this is elsewhere but I get press reader access for free through the state library in my browser. It has a lot of papers and magazines (though the interface isn't the best)
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by schnable on Monday August 03, 2020 @08:30AM (#24036844)
This is Apple News+ I think?
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by 5etho on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:02AM (#24035884)
and how much you think journalists should earn? 10k/yr?
Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by MattGaiser on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:10AM (#24035946)
Newsrooms probably pay for too many things.

You could probably get most opinion for free, lifestyle content for next to nothing, etc. The weekly jobless claims articles could be handled by cheap content mills. A lot of columns like personal finance and restaurants could easily be purchased freelance on the market.

The Huffington Post demonstrated that non-investigative content can be had for free.

So there should probably be far fewer middle skill journalists.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by marcus_holmes on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:45AM (#24037658)
Having run a newsroom, there is some very small truth in this. But the old motto of "you get what you pay for" is still true. The free stuff is uncontrollable - and is usually cloaked (or not so cloaked) advertising.

There's lot of "free" stories on the wire, but if your paper just runs wire stories then it ruins its reputation. And the reputation is what attracts advertisers.

In the end, you have to pay people to write good stuff. And that costs money.

However, Journalists do have to get over themselves. The days of journalists being the only people with a voice are long gone and never coming back.

Re:The Truth Is Paywalled but the Lies Are Free by hootbootscoot on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:20AM (#24036010)
But this is the same "race to the bottom" rhetoric that justified the entire "disruption" to the music and publishing industries that gave us Netflix and Amazon, respectively.

I'm less and less convinced that we are doing the world any service by demonetizing all content and cutting the heads of all tall talent, hence the authors presumption of a sort of public UBI or other non-private-sector basis as a condition to liberating the content.

The IP systems certainly are byzantine and punitive towards actual free information flow, as outlined in the article. However, if one approaches this as a typical Free Market Libertarian American (tm), as the author expressly does NOT, one arrives at different economic conclusions, and basically, journalism will not survive the complete demonetization of all content for ONE reason:

content will become even more corruptly tied to out-of-band payment than is currently the case.

why bother writing articles against the big bad polluter, when you can get paid to write apologism for them?