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Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by noodlesUK on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:00PM (#24033149)
Whilst paying the ransom is often advisable in specific cases like these, it’s absolutely a bad thing for society as a whole. Seeing successes like this will encourage organised crime to keep doing this, as they know there’s gonna be a big reward. It’s like the prisoners dilemma. If people didn’t pay the ransom, there wouldn’t be ransomware. But people don’t take precautions, so they have to pay the ransom, leading to more ransomware... it’s a vicious cycle
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by dannyw on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:06PM (#24033174)
To be honest, just how bad of a thing is this? It’s a direct financial punishment for a company with lax security practices. It encourages greater security practices.

The money is funnelled to a criminal group, but what difference does it make? Some people consider the USG to be a criminal group; many people are out on the streets for that. My tax dollars directly go to corrupt crooks and nonexistent companies claiming billions for nonexistent PPE.

As a member of society, I don’t care if I’m paying a professional ransomware group, or a professional corruption gang.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by ryan_j_naughton on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:15PM (#24033217)
> It’s a direct financial punishment for a company with lax security practices. It encourages greater security practices.

That argument could be used to justify any theft or even kidnapping.

I know many people who grew up in countries where kidnapping was a very real concern. Consequently, they had to adopt "greater security practices" and it had a very real, negative effect on their lives.

There are real harms to randomware. Companies go out of business, people lose their jobs, people lose their service providers, etc.

To say, "it serves them right for not following proper security" literally can be said for a mom/pop business in a poor neighborhood who didn't have bulletproof glass or bars on their windows. It is negating the fact that (a) the harms are very real and (b) security costs money and resources, which is effectively another tax on their business.

If instead the government made it illegal to pay such ransoms and actively audited large BTC transactions and charged people accordingly, then we could get rid of the incentives to do this in the first place.

The government should similarly hold firms accountable when they are hacked (due to the harms on consumers) and require prompt disclosure of any hacks.

There are ways to incentivize the preferred outcomes without supporting the active theft of property and destruction of someone's business.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by scrollaway on Sunday August 02, 2020 @10:44PM (#24033726)
Physical and digital security aren't the same thing. There's no such thing as "this website is in a bad internet neighbourhood and should take extra precautions".

I get where you're coming from but you can't really just flat out say "you can justify kidnapping with the same logic". Like, no, you can't. Fully agreed the government should be the ones playing the role of incentivizing security, but you can't then go back and say that security takes time and money those companies should not have to spend. They should, regardless of who keeps them accountable for it...

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by MattSayar on Monday August 03, 2020 @12:08PM (#24039526)
In addition, the company isn't the only victim in a ransomware attack, its customers are too.

And does anyone really believe the hackers deleted the data off their own servers? They can easily double-dip by selling that information. It's valuable, so why would they delete it?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by dannyw on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @02:09AM (#24047154)
Double dipping ruins the reputation of the hackers and future income potential.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by sumedh on Sunday August 02, 2020 @10:55PM (#24033781)
> The government should similarly hold firms accountable when they are hacked

What should the govt so when govt agencies get hacked?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by koolba on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:21PM (#24033251)
> As a member of society, I don’t care if I’m paying a professional ransomware group, or a professional corruption gang.

The kidnapping analogy makes for a better understanding of why paying ransoms is bad for everybody else. If kidnappers know, or really just think, that they’ll get paid, they’re more likely to kidnap and hold hostages.

It’s not that companies are not solely responsible for their own lax security policies. It’s that incentivizing the exploiting of them is bad for society.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by onion2k on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:46AM (#24035096)
It encourages greater security practices.

I don't think it does. It puts a much more tangible value on security, which encourages businesses to do a risk analysis like 'Do we spend $1m on security every year, or accept that there's a 0.xxx probability of a $4.5m ransom every n years?' That cost base analysis is often used to reduce the value of things that aren't obvious profit centers.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by benlumen on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:32AM (#24036417)
> To be honest, just how bad of a thing is this? It’s a direct financial punishment for a company with lax security practices. It encourages greater security practices.

I see your point but this is flat-out organized crime, extortion to be precise. How long will it be before we're all making protection payments to ransomware groups?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by usrusr on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:11AM (#24037974)
A difference to physical "protection" schemes is that the group you'd pay to might actually keep other groups out of what they consider their turf. Ransomware attacks are not geographically bound so I really doubt that similar structures would develop there. With growing numbers of ransomers demands just wouldn't stop until either the company runs out if money or security gets good enough to keep them out.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by benlumen on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @04:41AM (#24047931)
Good point, not a great analogy. My sentiment was the risk of this becoming normalized and even formalized.

When I was (a lot) younger, I had a pet theory that the anti-virus companies were making the viruses and that it was a sort of protection racket.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by markdown on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:57AM (#24036569)
What makes crime "organised"? There's no indication that this involved more than one thief.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by stagger87 on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:10AM (#24038675)
Organized crime has a specific meaning. Whether this particular outfit is one or more people has no bearing on the use of the term organized crime in this instance.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by markdown on Monday August 03, 2020 @05:37PM (#24043757)
I asked:

> What makes crime "organised"?

Your answer is:

> Organized crime has a specific meaning

Well... what is it?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by stagger87 on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:22PM (#24044680)
Sorry, I didn't think you might not be able to search for it. Here's a link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by markdown on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @05:55AM (#24048346)
The link says you're wrong, and that in fact you can't have organised crime without at least two people.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by DownGoat on Monday August 03, 2020 @02:23AM (#24034716)
It sucks for the people who got their personal information caught up in this. They do more than just encrypt your files, they typically siphon as much data as possible from the companies before they execute the ransom part.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by frequentnapper on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:16PM (#24033220)
I agree. It's a trade-off, especially if you're a startup or a company with a hot product trying to beat competitors to market. Security practices would translate to loss of opportunity, so maybe it's a worthwhile trade-off to pay 1% of the gained revenue to these kinds of threats as a company. Unless there are harsher penalties and victims start caring more (and are given more tools and power to punish the companies that make that trade-off), this situation will remain.

But then again, this makes the barrier to entry even higher for newcomers and gives an unfair advantage to the entrenched players. Tragedy of the commons?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by sytelus on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:47PM (#24033420)
The folks like this should actually do a startup. Hardening security is often just keeping up with and following checklists, installing proper monitoring, backup and audit software however for large majority of company it is impossible to hire competitive security specialists. These guys can scale up by hiring 100s of employees who they train on different aspects and contract with small firms like these at annual subscription. That would enable them making much more than $10M. With their current approach they will almost certainly get traced eventually and end up in jail.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by vermilingua on Sunday August 02, 2020 @10:58PM (#24033794)
They are likely based in a country not regarded to be a technology leader. Say you were the CTO of a firm looking to improve security, would you engage a Nigerian cybersec consultant? Almost certainly not, you would look in your home country, or the US/Europe.

If they were to start a consultancy, even if they are as skilled as anyone else, they’d have an uphill battle from the get go; and have to either stick to their home market, or heavily discount their services. Either way making less than from their ransomware.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by wtracy on Sunday August 02, 2020 @11:33PM (#24033970)
> These guys can scale up by hiring 100s

If you live in the third world, that immediately puts you on the radar of corrupt government officials and organized criminal organizations that want to extort you.

The ransomware gig allows you to stay small and keep a low profile. Nobody has to know that you are raking in the cash until you pack up your family and book it to Tahiti.

> With their current approach they will almost certainly get traced eventually and end up in jail.

Prison in a first world country is a lot better than getting executed, watching your family get executed, or getting kidnapped and forced into slave labor for the local mafia boss.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by limomium on Sunday August 02, 2020 @11:03PM (#24033824)
Even just hiring one guy whose only job is to take backups would solve ransomware for much cheaper.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by DangitBobby on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:58AM (#24034618)
There was a post on here a few days back about why it's not that simple. Basically, by the time your stuff is ransomed, they've potentially been in your network for a long time. There's no telling how far you have to go in your backups to make sure they are gone. Who knows, maybe they wait on your computers for several months just so restoring from backups isn't a realistic option, and punish you for trying.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by limomium on Monday August 03, 2020 @11:49AM (#24039236)
What? I mean back up your data. Not your whole... computer, or whatever. Install latest software, import data from back up, back in business. It's trivial to tell intact data from ransomed data - the latter looks like random noise, as it's encrypted.

If your backup process "isn't that simple", then you should make it that simple. Otherwise failure looms.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by DangitBobby on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @01:47AM (#24047025)
You misunderstand. I'm saying the network has potentially been infiltrated for months, and there's no telling what configuration and files have been altered to facilitate future infiltration. See further discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23929344

Particularly this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23951941

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by limomium on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @09:47AM (#24049890)
Disconnect entire network. Factory reset all devices. Reinstall latest everything.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by DangitBobby on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:06AM (#24057440)
Clearly you know best
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by csomar on Monday August 03, 2020 @04:22AM (#24035287)
> With their current approach they will almost certainly get traced eventually and end up in jail.

Depends. If they are a couple guys (or a single guy), and it's a one shot for him, he has very good odds of getting away with it. Cleanly launder his BTC and then move somewhere not suspicious and keep a low profile. At the end of the day, $4m is not that much money (ie: not able to afford multiple Ferraris).

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by anonu on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:16PM (#24033221)
It should encourage companies to lock down their infrastructure as well.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by tenuousemphasis on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:35AM (#24038233)
On the other hand, due to the same dilemma, every ransomware attacker has a strong incentive to actually deliver the keys upon payment of the ransom.

Perhaps the key to ending ransomware is some high profile attacks (real or fictional) where the victim pays but does not get their data back.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by benlumen on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:24AM (#24036368)
My thoughts, also. It's obvious why they don't, but ideally, every business would take a "we don't negotiate with terrorists" stance on this.

Could governments outlaw these ransom payments?

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by wendyshu on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:26AM (#24037457)
Seems like there's a great case to make it illegal, I wonder why it's not.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by coryfklein on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:22AM (#24038093)
You would need a way to legislate this globally. Outlawing it here in the US only intensifies the prisoner dilemma aspect of this - the criminal enterprises keep winning the remaining 85% of world GDP, while all US companies suffer the most from the ransomware.

You'd likely still see US companies pay the ransom anyway, but just try to keep it secret. Probably less risky than losing their crucial data and systems.

Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by jasonhansel on Monday August 03, 2020 @07:34AM (#24036428)
Not to mention the fact that the money could be going to terrorists or rogue states. This is clearly unethical, and IMHO should absolutely be against the law.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by tenuousemphasis on Monday August 03, 2020 @10:38AM (#24038267)
The U.S. government funded terrorism throughout the world. Thus paying taxes to the U.S. should be made illegal.
Re:US travel firm $4.5M ransom negotiation open chat by frodo_77 on Monday August 03, 2020 @04:43AM (#24035401)
"once you have paid him the Dane-geld, you never get rid of the Dane."