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Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bryanrasmussen on Saturday August 01, 2020 @02:04AM (#24018059)
A cover letter is a way to keep you out for not following the instruction of send your cv and a cover letter, nobody is going to read it.

I have a cover letter template I rewrite for each company.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by BeetleB on Saturday August 01, 2020 @02:18AM (#24018125)
> A cover letter is a way to keep you out for not following the instruction of send your cv and a cover letter, nobody is going to read it.

The fact that you say CV makes me thing that either:

1. You're in academia or some kind of research discipline.

2. You are not in the US (we distinguish between resumes and CVs, and CVs are almost unheard of in the engineering sphere here).

My comment about cover letters is US specific. Academic/research jobs should have a cover letter - I agree.

Most engineering positions I apply for do not require a cover letter - it is optional. If it is required, I do write one - but that is extremely rare. And I often do get calls from companies that allowed me to upload one (optionally) - even though I never upload one.

My guess is that the majority of companies that optionally allow you to upload one will never notice if you do.

My guess is that most likely the reason you can upload a cover letter (optionally) is that whoever designed the site is using a generic template - not because they actually want one.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by t_von_doom on Saturday August 01, 2020 @06:24AM (#24019314)
Here in the UK (at least in my experience) we use CV and resume interchangeably
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by plopilop on Saturday August 01, 2020 @08:46AM (#24020047)
Not American, what is the difference between CV and resume? I always assumed they were synonyms.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by RhysU on Saturday August 01, 2020 @11:17AM (#24021091)
In American business, snarkily, CVs are resumes from people who haven't learned how to edit.

US resumes are ideally 1 page with 2 pages (IMHO) being acceptable if one has enough experience.

American CVs spell out everything with a length that scales linearly with experience. Every publication. Every role. Major projects. Awards. Etc. For long-time academics these can run over 10 pages. A recent PhD recipient might use 3-4 pages for a CV.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by mamon on Saturday August 01, 2020 @04:25PM (#24023609)
>> US resumes are ideally 1 page with 2 pages (IMHO) being acceptable if one has enough experience

What if someone has 25 years of experience and held 10 different positions during that time, has a lot of ceritifications and other credentials? How do you fit all that on just two pages?

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:49AM (#24049388)
I tend to go back to 2009 and write previous experience available on request. I put writing in a sidebar, probably would do the same as certifications so I doubt you would have anything overflowing the first page. Anyway I am thinking to chop off writing at about 4-5 lines and then write previous writing available on request.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by RhysU on Saturday August 01, 2020 @06:15PM (#24024356)
What is pertinent to the role for which you are applying? Focus on that.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by DavidVoid on Saturday August 01, 2020 @09:41AM (#24020358)
Not American either but CVs (Curriculum Vitae, course of life) are much more comprehensive than resumes. If you're a researcher then you'd include a list of all of your published work, presentations, lectures, grants, scholarships, professional associations, etc.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by ghaff on Saturday August 01, 2020 @10:10AM (#24020534)
In the US, the CV term tends to be used more in academia and research while resume tends to be used more elsewhere. And, in academia, you're more likely to list the sort of things you mentioned. Though the terms certainly can be used interchangeably. I have a ton of (non-academic) publications as well but, other than a couple books, I'd just include a hyperlink to a pubs page on my website that has a sampling.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by dakiol on Saturday August 01, 2020 @09:46AM (#24020384)
In the rest of the world: CV and resume are interchangeable.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by BossingAround on Saturday August 01, 2020 @05:37AM (#24019089)
To a lot of people, CV and resume are synonyms.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bryanrasmussen on Saturday August 01, 2020 @02:32AM (#24018198)
Not in U.S
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @02:52AM (#24018286)
The assumption here is that companies will forego interviewing the best candidates because they copy-pasted their cover letters. I just don't buy that.

"This guy seems really good, but he didn't rewrite his introduction for us. What do you think? Remove his interview?"

Like hell any company is going to do that.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by coffeeiscold on Saturday August 01, 2020 @03:40AM (#24018522)
I guess the question is, how does this person "seem really good"? To determine this, they have to have a well written resume that highlights relevant experience. Most resumes seem to be "company xyz - frobulated the frobulation system" Unless of course your company is interested in frobulation also.

The contrary: "this person has a bunch of experience on their resume that is possibly beneficial, but their cover letter doesn't give any indication they have thought about the role they are applying for. This other applicant shows insight into the requirements of the role via their cover letter, and has highlighted key areas of their experience, giving greater detail about how it will be useful in this role."

Who are you going to pick to interview?

Perhaps this is more important for niche industries, and smaller teams. In a large team you can get good coverage of skills through sheer number of people. In a small team its the alignment of skills is more important.

When hiring (small, niche org) I carefully read all the cover letters.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @04:40AM (#24018824)
I understand this hypothetical, my point is: I don't think it's actually relevant. It's not going to be the tipping point.

I should make my contention clearer: I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter. This doesn't just apply to the best candidates - if any candidate looks hireable in relation to the rest of the applicant pool, they will put them through to the next stage of the process. Once you've actually sat down and spoken to someone, your written introduction is irrelevant.

I do think it probably matters more for small companies, but they're also going to get way less applications to begin with so it's like... You're really going to just not interview good candidates? Really?

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by coffeeiscold on Monday August 03, 2020 @01:44PM (#24040891)
It seems you might have missed my point.

"I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter."

My point is that the cover letter is one of the tools the applicant can use to highlight themselves as a good candidate. It could easily be the tipping point for getting an interview. It can give you some feeling for their communication skills, their understanding of the role / company / product. Though I concede most cover letters are not very well written, mostly generic. In the absence of a good cover letter, their resume alone must stand out.

Of course it could be a tricky situation: choosing between a candidate with a great cover letter and less obviously great resume vs a generic cover letter and more relevant experience listed on their resume.

Personally I would lean towards the better cover letter. They have given a clearer indication enthusiasm and interest in the job. A well written cover letter will explain how their experience is relevant, despite not superficially appearing so. This allows them to show insight into the role.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by zaphoyd on Saturday August 01, 2020 @07:13AM (#24019549)
One point of data: My large organization’s HR department lists a cover letter as a requirement and will forbid us from moving ahead with even a first round interview if the application is incomplete. So yes, really, we can’t interview candidates who demonstrate right at the front door that they can’t/won’t/haven’t read the application requirements.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @07:54AM (#24019764)
I misspoke - I meant to say a generic cover letter. No cover letter full stop is stupid.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bryanrasmussen on Saturday August 01, 2020 @09:27AM (#24020276)
ok but in the post of mine your replied to I specified I used a cover letter template - i.e a generic cover letter.
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @09:38AM (#24020344)
Right, but you rewrote it. I'm saying totally copy-pasted content is still unlikely to move you from "good candidate" to "no interview".
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by paulcole on Saturday August 01, 2020 @07:41AM (#24019690)
Most people aren’t the best candidate. And most jobs don’t require the best candidate.

I’ve got a lot of resumes and cover letters to look through and at the end of the day, a lot of people are going to be a pretty good fit. I’m going to save myself a lot of time by discarding anyone who didn’t bother to read the job post and follow directions.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @07:57AM (#24019782)
Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application. So the relevant question is: does the reduction in hit rate outweigh the increase in application rate? I argue: probably not. Depends if you're exhausting all postings.

The whole thing seems screwy to me. You only hire people who put a lot of effort into contacting you? So you don't recruit? A good candidate is a good candidate whether or not they spent half an hour on a cold pitch.

The problem is, you're putting up job ads (that might well be fake, candidates don't know) and expecting candidates to put in a lot of effort. You're not respecting the nature of the situation - both sides have a very low hit rate, so it's irrational for either side to put much effort into individual transactions (if they're in demand). Filters that filter out low-effort applications filter for one thing: people who have an incentive to put in effort. That doesn't just cut out people that are spamming.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by paulcole on Saturday August 01, 2020 @08:15AM (#24019887)
> Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application

OK, so do that.

You’re applying to a lot of jobs and you don’t care too much about any one of them in particular, so why should I care about your application in particular? I’ll save a lot of time by not closely reviewing your application.

Again, my point is that most people aren’t in demand and most jobs aren’t that demanding.

Someone is going to read the job post in full and put in a modicum of effort and will be a decent fit. I’ll look for that person vs. the person who put in zero effort and will be a decent fit.

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by bananaface on Saturday August 01, 2020 @08:24AM (#24019938)
This doesn't make sense. If "minimum bar" is your selection criteria and you're inundated with so many "good enough" candidates that you can't interview them all & it doesn't matter who you pick, you're overpaying. Why not drop your offers until you're selecting from a smaller pool?

I don't mean this hypothetically, I mean: isn't this what most companies actually do?

But in any case, what you're saying here is: "if the job has a large applicant ratio and you are unlikely to get hired, then I will use time spent as a filtering mechanism." The rational thing to do is to not apply to those positions (or spray & pray).

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by perl4ever on Saturday August 01, 2020 @01:06PM (#24022053)
>This doesn't make sense. If "minimum bar" is your selection criteria

I think "minimum bar" refers to technical skills, not all selection criteria. It's perfectly sensible* to look at a larger pool with the minimum skills and select from the few with the right attitude and attention to detail.

That's not the same strategy as reducing the pool to the cheapest candidates regardless of their attitude, and isn't going to produce the same hiring decisions.

* even if it's not a universal strategy

Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by hackinthebochs on Saturday August 01, 2020 @09:44AM (#24020372)
You must be that rare unicorn that actually realizes their company isn't a future FAANG. A lot of consternation over hiring could be avoided if most companies realized they can get by just fine with average developers. But most people psychologically want to hire the "best" developer available and so would not be satisfied with "can do the job".
Re:What I learned from doing over 60 technical interviews in... by mszcz on Saturday August 01, 2020 @03:37AM (#24018502)
Like hell I’d like to work for a company that would do that.