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Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @05:59PM (#24014695)
Beyond the security of not giving our credit cards, and the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients, Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways.

If they’re forced to open up to 3rd party stores, I hope they can do it in a way that prevents Adobe from running 8 background processes to make sure my license is current and there aren’t any font updates to download and to make Reader launch faster by keeping it in memory all the time, or whatever it is they do with their Creative Cloud client stuff.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by admax88q on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:36PM (#24015035)
An operating system that actually empowered you would give you the tools and options to prevent that, while also letting you run whatever software you desired.

I will never understand people's desire to be handcuffed by Apple. Give me control over my own device god damn it.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by manicdee on Saturday August 01, 2020 @12:46AM (#24017712)
If you want to work on your ultimate phone environment as a hobby, there is Android. If you want things to work just the way they are with the fewest surprises and least amount of finagling use Apple.

I use macOS instead of Linux for this reason: last time I tried updating the production packages on a Linux box it took me hours to clean up the mess that X11 left behind.

Don’t criticise my walled garden just because you want to experiment with weed salad in your community garden.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by admax88q on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:48AM (#24028676)
Whether a system "just works" or it requires finagling is or should be an orthogonal discussion to whether it respects you as a user.

Its reasonable to ask for both.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by manicdee on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:15PM (#24138646)
My walled garden respects me as a user, but I am the kind of user the walled garden is maintained for.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by threatofrain on Friday July 31, 2020 @11:02PM (#24016997)
Whether you take out your own garbage or Apple does it it’s still garbage for you to clean up. Some people want to throw money at Apple to take care of the garbage for them.

If you give apps the right not to do things like AppleID they’ll take it and the App Store would be a highly inconsistent experience for people who want to do no thinking about how their device works. There ought to be some middle ground but consumers are the ones who will have their boundaries encroached unless an entity ruthlessly minds the border...

For the degree of opening you leave companies will extract that much concession from your users.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by aeurielesn on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:52PM (#24015187)
Rest assured that despite the somehow surprisingly recent blind support for Apple here, there are people too that want to own our devices.

I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance, app store, the list just goes on.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by xvector on Friday July 31, 2020 @10:01PM (#24016682)
> headset jacks

You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices?

> OS slow downs

iOS has gotten faster over time [1].

> mysterious battery underperformance

It's common knowledge that this was an honest engineering mistake because as a phone ages, the battery cannot support the max voltage of the processor. Apple now lets you enable full performance with the understanding that your phone might shut down on you when you need it most.

> app store

Which we've determined not to be a monopoly as Apple is a minority player in the mobile device space.

> the list just goes on.

So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach.

It seems to me that you just want the company to burn and you want the EU to regulate the hell out of everything in your life.

For example, deciding whether I want to put a headphone jack on my next device is my choice, not the EU's choice, and it would be tyrannical and innovation-stifling to let them have a say over something like that.

It is very reasonable for you to just buy something else if you don't like an Apple device, since Apple is not a monopoly in the mobile space. However, neither you nor the government should have the right to force Apple to develop a product you like. Apple does not exist to satisfy your whims.

[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/ios-13-the-ars-techn...

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by threatofrain on Saturday August 01, 2020 @01:04AM (#24017806)
The problem with the battery thing is then Apple can give the appearance that their phones have some speed profile when in reality it’s more complicated, even if the complications are in their sum a calculated benefit to the consumer.

However, I’m not really sure that other companies are contextually more honest to consumers in their advertising, or that such standards in communication even exist for the American marketplace. It’s hard to criticize Apple for the details when the bigger story is their great relationship with customers.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by aeurielesn on Sunday August 02, 2020 @08:04AM (#24028134)
> Apple does not exist to satisfy your whims.

I never said so. In any case, I don't need you to tell me what to do.

I vote with my wallet and I don't buy Apple products anymore.

The government does not need to regulate it, the market itself will do it just like it did with Microsoft. On the meantime, I'll let you keep finding excuses for Apple's shady practices.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @10:21PM (#24016799)
> You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices?

> So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach.

There is precedence for the EU mandating Apple change their hardware practices:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2020/02/11/apple-ch...

> So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach.

Here's a 5th one:

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/29/tile-writes-to-eu-accus...

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by xvector on Friday July 31, 2020 @10:51PM (#24016947)
In your first source: letting the EU regulate the charging cable would have been provably dumb and absurd. Lightning was years ahead of Micro-USB when it was released and served as inspiration for USB-C. Just another example of how government overregulation would harm innovation and industries.

The second source is Tile complaining about the privacy warnings in iOS 13. It’s laughable. Customers are turning off abusive always-on surveillance thanks to iOS 13 notifications and this is hurting Tile. Working as intended.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @11:08PM (#24017028)
Regardless of the prudence of the EU regulating the cable, the very fact that they have weighed in on the subject shows that hardware decisions are within the court's purview, and so would headphone jacks, presumably. One's opinion of said prudence is up for debate, certainly.

The Tile situation is TBD, pending Apple's release of AirTags. Will iOS user location notifications pop up as frequently in Apple's first party Find My app as it does in Tile's app? Stay tuned!

Also, the letter mentions the matter of Apple removing their previous Tile store presence (presumably in favor of AirTags), which is within their power but brings up the matter of Sherlocking. Sure, Sherlocking is legal- but is it ethical? Is it right when Facebook scouts other apps to duplicate it in their app? Is it right when Apple does the same to preexisting apps in its App Store? At the very least, these legal cases- whether you think them prudent or not- bring them before the public for examination and discussion.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by saagarjha on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:07PM (#24015342)
> I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance

Entirely unrelated, and it's 3.5 mm by the way.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:31PM (#24015595)
2.5mm jacks exist but iOS devices have never used them. I think some feature phones did that back in the day.

Personally I've only encountered them on a pair of headphones where they're a step up from a soldered on cable, but more annoying than a standard jack would be. It's also recessed really far in with a very narrow twist-lock connector, so isn't compatible with any cables except the special one it comes with.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:00PM (#24015282)
You can run third party apps and Steam on macOS-equipped laptop computers just fine. Why it should be any different on pocket or tablet iOS computers?
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:10PM (#24015381)
I appreciate that iOS does not allow software to require this.

Yes you can avoid the giant mess of 3rd party launchers on Mac, but only by writing off huge swaths of the software market. Want to run Photoshop? You get to have the Creative Cloud client.

The current state of iOS software is that I never have to go into Task Manager and see what junk has inserted itself as a startup item, whether anything will break if I don't want its update/license client running in the background, or worry about whether it really quits when I quit it or tries to stay resident in the system tray.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:18PM (#24015459)
The current state of iOS software is that you can't run Signal in China. Or torrent client anywhere.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by xvector on Friday July 31, 2020 @10:05PM (#24016704)
Okay, and why is it your fundamental right to be able to do either of those? On what basis should a company be compelled to implement that functionality?

You can always buy a device that allows you to do those things, after all. It's not like Apple is the only device vendor out there, or even a majority device vendor.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Andrew_nenakhov on Saturday August 01, 2020 @08:08AM (#24019854)
Because if I own the device, manufacturer should not decide what kind of apps I can run.

See: a user in China owns the iPhone and wants to run the app.

Apps developer wants a user to run the app.

And only Apple doesn't let it happen, on the device that it doesn't own anymore.

Regarding your argument, "do not buy it", of course I don't buy it! But that doesn't make this position of Apple right, and I'm glad that lawmakers might put an end to this malicious practice.

Returning your argument, if Apple wants to control what users do with the iPhones, perhaps they shouldn't give up their ownership of devices and shouldn't sell them.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:32PM (#24015604)
Then don't download apps from a hypothetical secondary iOS App Store. You literally have the same option as people in this thread who say "just don't buy Apple."
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:55PM (#24015804)
I'm aware that I can avoid installing a second store and not run any software that comes from it. The issue I'm pointing out is that software that's currently available through the App Store could move exclusively to alternatives if given the option.

Like that time when Epic Games said "We don't want to use the Google Play Store, so if you want to play Fortnite you have to install it from the Fortnite Installer". And then we immediately had this: https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/112630336?pli=1

> This vulnerability allows an app on the device to hijack the Fortnite Installer to instead install a fake APK with any permissions that would normally require user disclosure.

If they could switch to Fortnite Installer on iOS I assume they would. Would it have security holes? Would it do other annoying things that the App Store doesn't let them do?

Repeat those questions for a hypothetical Microsoft iOS Store, Google iOS Store, Amazon iOS Store, Steam iOS Store, Ubisoft iOS Store, EA iOS Store, Pokemon GO Installer, Nintendo iOS Store, iOS Minecraft Launcher, and I'd expect to see more security vulnerabilities and/or hostile behaviors that Apple doesn't allow.

It's a tradeoff. I know the current system isn't perfect, but I worry that forcing Apple to allow other stores to do their own thing will be worse in a variety of ways.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:06PM (#24015906)
But then, simply don't run that software. Vote with your wallet. Use a competitor that remains on the App Store. Why deprive others of the choice, in favor of a single entity in charge- a single point of failure? I thought it was a truism in tech that monocultures are a bad thing?
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:20PM (#24016007)
I'm voting with my wallet to have an iPhone where there's no Fortnite Installer instead of Android where there is.

Believe it or not I had an Android phone before and decided I like Apple's system better.

If it were my only computing device and I needed to run a bittorrent client I acknowledge it would be a problem, but like I said elsewhere in the comments, it's a trade-off.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:30PM (#24016073)
I agree there's a tradeoff. And that in the scenario where Apple allows alternate app stores, there would also be tradeoffs. But I disagree with your view that it would have to resemble the situation on Android. I feel that the Apple brand and the inherent security features of the iOS environment- which aren't simply the exclusivity of the App Store and the App Store Review process- could lead to secondary stores that are carefully curated and have a higher bar of security than the ones you see on Android. In fact, one could very well imagine companies entering into a new market and providing secure app markets that try to beat Apple at their own game (such as searchability). For one thing, there's more money to be made with iOS apps, and perhaps that could lead to greater investment and higher quality stores.

I view the dismissals of "secondary app markets will just be like insecure shoddy secondary Android app stores" to be both pessimistic and lacking in imagination at the potential for new businesses and innovation to be created if Apple just gives up a little bit of its dominating power.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by dcow on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:44PM (#24015718)
Oh but see then third parties who's software _I_ want so badly and would sacrifice my ethical position to acquire might choose not to distribute on Apple's app store because it's anti-competitive. Well shit.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Silhouette on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:42PM (#24015691)
the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients

Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here.

Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways.

It would be a much safer solution if Apple's operating system limited 3rd party software's ability to do things it shouldn't. Trying to filter malware at the app store level might improve your odds, but it's not a robust, scalable solution to malware and it never has been.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:02PM (#24015873)
> Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here.

• Steam (Valve)

• Uplay (Ubisoft)

• Origin (EA)

• Epic (Epic)

• Galaxy (CDProjekt)

• LoL Launcher (Riot)

• Battle.net (Blizzard)

• Twitch (Amazon)

• Minecraft Launcher (Mojang)

Probably others I'm missing.

Can't wait to have a whole home screen dedicated to different app stores because each one has a single exclusive game that I wanted to play

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Silhouette on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:22PM (#24016022)
So why not build a standard mechanism to install and update 3rd party software into the OS? It's hardly a radical idea. There are plenty of solutions to that problem that don't involve monopolising the distribution of all software on the platform.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @09:15PM (#24016371)
I agree in principle that this would be OK, except part of Apple's vetting processes is making sure apps aren't accessing private APIs.

I don't want to download a game and find out that it's secretly spinning up a background spyware process to monitor the screenbuffer and sending the screenshots off to god knows where.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Silhouette on Friday July 31, 2020 @09:55PM (#24016646)
Surely the solution to that is not to have your OS expose "private" APIs that allow abusive behaviour? It's not as if they aren't widely exploited even on the official app store today.

Once again, trying to filter malware at the app store level is not a viable strategy for robust, reliable security, and it never has been.

Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @09:24PM (#24016428)
Presently, security researchers are already finding both major apps doing this on the Apple App Store (Facebook accessing the camera on the News Feed), and spyware apps happening on secondary Android stores (also on the official Play Store). Sounds like an opportunity for more security watchdog businesses.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by wlesieutre on Friday July 31, 2020 @11:52PM (#24017360)
The recent camera and clipboard things aren't private APIs, so the review process isn't looking for them being used in sneaky ways. I do appreciate iOS 14 adding a user-facing indication so we can tell when it's being abused though.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by Apocryphon on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:23PM (#24016028)
That's already the case with chat clients, or social media, and many other categories of app. Such is the price of competition and variety.
Re:The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct... by krzyk on Saturday August 01, 2020 @04:30AM (#24018774)
> Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways.

And also makes apps like Tasker impossible, which from my side of the table is too much.

There should be a button somewhere in iOS called "safety belts off" and I should be able to do anything to a device I bought.