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Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by chadash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @11:51AM (#23999582)
The internet archive was expressly using "Controlled Digital Lending" [0], a term that they subscribed to that seems to clearly mean "no more copies lent out a time than the number of physical copies owned". They decided to abandon this limitation. The opposite of controlled is uncontrolled, so seems like a fair term to me.

[0] https://controlleddigitallending.org/

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by themodelplumber on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:01PM (#23999673)
That an opposite term exists does not mean that abandonment or a shift away from the original term mandates a shift to the opposite. If my computer stops "running very fast," that doesn't mean that it is now "running very slow."

In this way, "uncontrolled" is not a fair term; rather it seems to be used for a specific, possibly unfair purpose by a specific side in this argument. The fact is, IA had specific, qualitatively-controlling controls on their lending, and anyone who checked out one of the books could see exactly what that meant. Nuances are important here.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by chadash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:54PM (#24000378)
They aren't using the word "controlled". They are using "controlled digital lending" which has a specific meaning that the Internet Archive subscribes to, which they summarize as:

> Essentially, CDL must maintain an “owned to loaned” ratio. Circulation in any format is controlled so that only one user can use any given copy at a time, for a limited time. Further, CDL systems generally employ appropriate technical measures to prevent users from retaining a permanent copy or distributing additional copies.

So what they are doing definitely is not "controlled digital lending", by their own definition. At best, it's semi-controlled, but the real essence of the "control" is the number of copies, so "uncontrolled" seems fair.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by themodelplumber on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:09PM (#24000569)
This implies that their definition begins and ends with that paragraph. I would tend to go to them and ask them to verify that this limiting definition was exactly what they had in mind (as opposed to a simple blurb); that additional lending controls are in use by IA, including controls which are not explicitly written into that paragraph, is something that is easily validated online.

If they do agree with you that the paragraph you pasted is their end-to-end definition of "controlled," that means they haven't yet incorporated these other controls into their definition, and they definitely still can and should.

There's no singular time limit or definite requirement to define such things in this case, and IA have engaged lots of controls, from HTTPS and authentication on up to content-level media and time controls.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by chadash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:34PM (#24000853)
That's not just a blurb that someone typed accidentally. It's an official position statement that they signed onto and the definition is also reiterated in the accompanying white paper [0].

Sure, they can change their position. But A) I can't go off of what is potentially in some stranger's head and B) they would be redefining the term.

[0] https://controlleddigitallending.org/whitepaper

edit: I hear where you are coming from though. I agree it's got some "control", so you don't like the term "uncontrolled". But I think we probably agree that it isn't "controlled digital lending" even if it is "controlled" to some extent.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by venatiodecorus on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:48PM (#24002190)
this is the kind of thread i expect on HACKER NEWS
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by gamblor956 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:22PM (#23999956)
In this case, "uncontrolled" digital lending is the appropriate term, because the IA admits that they removed those controls as part of the National "Emergency" Library program.

Also, why does it matter if 130 libraries said they were okay with the CDL program, since that's not at issue here?

Library CDL programs were still online and functioning the entire time. Only the physical facilities were closed.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by mcguire on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:27PM (#24002508)
"Library CDL programs were still online and functioning the entire time. Only the physical facilities were closed."

As far as I know, most public libraries' electronic lending programs are using something similar to Rakuten OverDrive and are limited to books published in electronic editions and then leased by the library systems. Do you know of any libraries other than the Internet Archive that make scanned copies of physical books available?

If you find yourself in the position of needing a copy of Charles Ross' biography Edward IV (https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/m8Ojo6VI8KUC?hl=en), as far as I know you're pretty much limited to the Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/edwardiv00ross) unless you have an open research library handy. But you'd best make it quick, because the publishers want those copies deleted.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by boogies on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:32PM (#24000108)
They removed one type of control. “Uncontrolled” implies that there was no control whatsoever (no time limits, etc.).
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by chadash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:57PM (#24000418)
There is a 14 day time limit, but you can renew when that's over, with no limitations based on who else has a copy of the book. So it doesn't seem like a very meaningful control, certainly not in the eye of the copyright holder.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by acqq on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:04PM (#24002310)
> you can renew when that's over

You could now try, if the DRM allows it, and the Internet Archive only temporarily during the lockdowns, through the DRM, allowed more than one person to read the book. That is, you could have had it for 14 days, but now you just couldn't renew it anymore unless nobody reads it.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by antasvara on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:51PM (#24002711)
What would you consider to be the correct term to use? I've seen a lot of posters arguing with the term "uncontrolled," and I agree that IA was utilizing some type of control when lending out their books. However, "controlled digital lending" is a very specific form of digital lending that most (if not all) libraries use for lending their digital resources [1].

I guess the correct term to use would be something along the lines of "lending that doesn't follow the legal definition of controlled lending" or something along those lines, but that is a somewhat unwieldy phrase to use as a part of most posts.

[1]: https://controlleddigitallending.org/

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by ChrisLomont on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:13AM (#24007543)
Controlled does not mean every possible constraint.

Uncontrolled does not mean zero constraints whatsoever.

Especially when used in opposition to the precisely defined phrase Controlled Digital Lending, where controlled is a well defined set of constraints.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by gamblor956 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:12PM (#24000600)
Controlled in the context relevant to this case relates to the number of copies, not the duration of each lending term. It doesn't matter how long the lending term is if you lend infinite simultaneous copies.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by mcguire on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:29PM (#24002521)
As far as I know, no one, much less the Internet Archive, is currently capable of lending infinite simultaneous copies.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by joshuamorton on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:42PM (#24002623)
The publishers concern is exactly that IA could do that, since the number of copies they were lending wasn't actually tied to anything they owned or were licensed to lend.
Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by kbenson on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:31PM (#24000815)
> The opposite of controlled is uncontrolled, so seems like a fair term to me.

No longer strictly doing something does not imply it's opposite.

For example, the opposite of help is harm, and no longer helping something does not imply you are harming them, does it?

These terms are the extremes of a spectrum. Noting that you are no longer on one extreme of a spectrum does not immediately imply you are now at the other extreme.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by cgriswald on Friday July 31, 2020 @04:10AM (#24006711)
Harming or helping someone is a spectrum with a neutral point. You can help someone. You can harm someone. You can help someone more or help someone less. Or you can neither help nor harm someone. Because there is that neutral point, when we say someone stopped helping, there is a state other than harming in which they can be, so harming is not implied (although it still may be the case).

Control of a variable—in this case the number of copies lent—is strictly binary. There is no neutral state in which the variable can be neither controlled nor uncontrolled.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by kbenson on Friday July 31, 2020 @01:02PM (#24010735)
> Control of a variable—in this case the number of copies lent—is strictly binary. There is no neutral state in which the variable can be neither controlled nor uncontrolled.

This is the crux of the point. Control over a variable is not what's in question. Control over many variables is, some of which were controlled and some weren't. In that respect, if you go from a controlled process where the variables in question are all controlled to one in which some of them are, it is not now "uncontrolled", it's partially controlled, it's also partially uncontrolled. There is less control, but it doesn't make sense to call it uncontrolled where there is still control over some variables retained, and we're still using the same context which applies to the same set of variables.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by cgriswald on Friday July 31, 2020 @02:09PM (#24011652)
Yes, but in CDL the relevant variable is the number of copies lent. Changing, for instance, the duration of lending wouldn’t change whether you were practicing CDL if you continued to loan digital copies only on a 1:1 basis.

Arguing otherwise is a bit like saying discrete mathematics isn’t discrete because we can represent the number one by a line of arbitrary length. That’s strictly true but has nothing at all to do with the actual definition of discrete mathematics.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by kbenson on Friday July 31, 2020 @05:20PM (#24014281)
> Yes, but in CDL the relevant variable is the number of copies lent.

No, CDL very clearly outlines 6 different criteria by which it should work.[1] One of those criteria is:

limit the total number of copies in any format in circulation at any time to the number of physical copies the library lawfully owns (maintain an “owned to loaned” ratio);

It does not state 1:1, just that some ratio is maintained, and even if that one criteria were to be ignored, there are 5 other criteria just as important to the process, such as ensuring that each digital copy goes to a single person, and that the digital copy prevents additional copying, and that it's limited by time.

Whether they qualify for the moniker of CDL when not following one of those six criteria is debatable, but notably it's not what we're debating here, which is whether it's accurate to call what they did "uncontrolled" because it was called controlled previously (even if that's a name library marketing made up for this). Given all the other controls in place (likely every other criteria listed for CDL), I would say it definitely was not "uncontrolled".

1: https://controlleddigitallending.org/whitepaper

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by cgriswald on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:58PM (#24015249)
> No, CDL very clearly outlines 6 different criteria by which it should work.

You've not made any counter claim here. You've left me guessing which criteria you mean to include some type of control, so I'll go through them all.

ensure that original works are acquired lawfully; This isn't really about controlling anyone but themselves and is also part of what did not appear to happen in the NEL.

lend each digital version only to a single user at a time just as a physical copy would be loaned; This isn't meaningfully different than maintaining the ratio.

limit the time period for each lend to one that is analogous to physical lending; and In the absence of maintaining the ratio, the length of duration is meaningless, since the same person can just check out the book again.

use digital rights management to prevent wholesale copying and redistribution. Again, without maintaining the ratio, what control does this achieve?

>> limit the total number of copies in any format in circulation at any time to the number of physical copies the library lawfully owns (maintain an “owned to loaned” ratio); > It does not state 1:1, just that some ratio is maintained,

This is a difference without distinction. Sure, they could be loaned at a ratio less than 1, but they cannot, by definition, loan at a ratio greater than one.

> Whether they qualify for the moniker of CDL when not following one of those six criteria is debatable, but notably it's not what we're debating here, which is whether it's accurate to call what they did "uncontrolled" because it was called controlled previously

These are not separate debates. There's context behind the use of the term 'controlled'.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by kbenson on Friday July 31, 2020 @08:20PM (#24016003)
> In the absence of maintaining the ratio, the length of duration is meaningless, since the same person can just check out the book again.

That only makes sense if you assume the ratio is infinite if above zero. This matters in any case where the ratio is not infinite.

> Again, without maintaining the ratio, what control does this achieve?

Combined with limiting the time period the lending is allowed, which you conveniently left out, it's controls the scope entirely. Even if you allow unlimited copied, you can change that and if the copies are all limited to one week and are cannot be copied by users, in a week you can have effectively reduced number of items lent to zero if you want. Without these constraints you can't. They are integral to the whole idea of CDL.

> This is a difference without distinction. Sure, they could be loaned at a ratio less than 1, but they cannot, by definition, loan at a ratio greater than one.

Sure they can. Their justification for why they believe it's legal does not allow a ratio of above one, but almost all the other criteria still applies when it is above one, and specifically, what the IA did was lend at a ratio above one. Your other points about how stuff doesn't matter if the ratio is one are specifically avoiding this point.

My point is simple. CDL would not work from a legal perspective if there was not some way to limit the time in which the item was lent and prevent copying just as it would not work if there's not a physical copy backing the lending. To say it's uncontrolled because only one aspect of all those parts that make the whole makes no sense.

That's akin to having a dog restrained with a leash, harness and muzzle, and after the muzzle is removed, saying the god is unrestrained. The dog is restrained still, just less so than before. The IA lent books in a controlled manner (an account is required, there was DRM, there were limits on length), it was just less controlled than before, because they did not back each digital copy with a physical one.

That there were clearly some controls in place means that it's erroneous to call it uncontrolled.

Feel free to respond and refute as you see fit, I'll read and consider what you say, but I won't respond on this particular thread anymore. I think we've spend enough time on this that it's unlikely to tread fruitful new ground that will change either of our minds, and we could probably go back and forth on minutia for quite a while.

Re:Internet Archive responds to publishers’ lawsuit by pjjw on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:35PM (#24001469)
ignore trolls who insist on using tautologies to bend language to superficially make a point.