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Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bhl on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:45AM (#23996628)
It's mentioned in the article indirectly: when you enable consumers to demand more, you increase competitive pressures amongst producers as well. Your landlord raises your rent by $1000? That's fine: you move to another town that's cheaper. Landlords are no longer competing within a town or city; now, they're competing with landlords every where else.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:43AM (#23996980)
> That's fine: you move to another town that's cheaper

This is a pretty privileged perspective to have and shows that you may not fully grasp what it's like to be poor.

Do you understand the costs of moving (both monetary and time spent)? Do you understand the cost of most likely having to quit and find a new job (if they are available)? do you understand the costs (socially and mentally) of having to leave your community/family of support?

The opportunity cost of what you are suggesting makes it much less feasible than you make it seem

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by danaris on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:51AM (#23997494)
One of the benefit of UBI—indeed, for some people, one of the explicit purposes of UBI—is that it drastically reduces the need to fear that moving will be too expensive for you.

It is, of course, possible to implement a UBI that is too low to make it practical to move, but I would argue that in that case, it is missing the "Basic" part, because it does not provide enough to meet real people's Basic needs.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by salawat on Sunday August 02, 2020 @01:09PM (#24029915)
I think the concern many people have (and rightfully so) is that the economy is not a static system. Any artificial offsets (UBI) will just get priced into every agent's value calculation.

The thing that gives "Capital" power is that you have it, no one else does, and you're trying to transform it into some arrangement that over time creates more value than it consumes.

The transformation applied can absolutely be done incorrectly, making subsequent capital value transformations more difficult to accomplish profitably given greater constraints on the means the capital allocator can bring to bear.

Nothing about UBI substantially changes the nature of that system, therefore, the real problem to be solved, (the asymmetry of means between capital allocators) given a system that optimizes toward capital control centralization (more capital fewer hands) without also being paired with wealth ceilings via tax extraction at the top and reinjection at the bottom.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:57AM (#23997552)
> is that it drastically reduces the need to fear that moving will be too expensive for you

Sure, that would definitely be one area where UBI would assist with but as I mentioned in another comment - it would kind of defeat the purpose of the UBI if people had to spend it on mitigating the consequences of people taking advantage of them receiving UBI

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bhl on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:47PM (#24003215)
The empowerment of poor people to move may be enough to just discourage landlords from raising rents in the first place. It's like when workers join unions and increase their bargaining power: even those not in the union benefit.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bsenftner on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:00AM (#23997085)
The pro UBI arguments completely miss the 2nd level effects - the predators will come out in droves and the less intelligent will be conned into long term contracts that consume their entire UBI. UBI is a gift to the wealthy - it gives them a huge pool to steal from.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by teddyh on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:11AM (#23997151)
Possibly, but that sounds like a problem which could be solved separately, perhaps with stricter laws about what constitutes an onerous contract; we need not discount UBI entirely because it causes some problems, since the problems UBI causes might be better than the problems we have without UBI, and the problems with UBI might be easier to solve.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bsenftner on Thursday July 30, 2020 @11:40AM (#23999430)
If the issue of predator treatment of consumers were addressed first, a large amount of the pressure for UBI will evaporate. The poor are poor due to predator capitalism, not due to any lack of skills on their behalf.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by teddyh on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:04PM (#24002307)
It might be that UBI is politically potentially possible, while the other issues are not politically viable to solve in the present situation. Politics is the art of the possible.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by onion2k on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:26AM (#23997275)
That's a really bad reason to keep poor people poor and a very good reason to crack down on the behaviour of rich people.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by zentiggr on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:17AM (#23997726)
Unfortunately, that's had a really poor track record this past century or so.

I don't have a good answer either... I just agree that UBI seems like a net positive.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by Sodman on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:27AM (#23997284)
Being poor isn't a lack of intelligence, it's a lack of money. No doubt a few people will get conned out of their money, but for the majority it would be a net positive to have more money at their disposal.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by zentiggr on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:19AM (#23997767)
People already get preyed on every second of every day. I don't think there would be the surge of losses you imagine.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by patmorgan23 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:28AM (#23997290)
That will absolutely happen sometimes the question is how common it will be vs how many other people will be able to use those resources to get themselves into a better situation.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by onion2k on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:28AM (#23997292)
If people had UBI they would be able to spend that money moving if they wanted to, and they'd have money to travel and visit family further away.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:55AM (#23997535)
Even if the cost of moving/visiting family were offset by the rent savings - which very possibly would not be - it would kind of defeat the purpose of the UBI if people had to spend it on mitigating the consequences of people taking advantage of them receiving UBI
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by CuriouslyC on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:50AM (#23998068)
It's easier for poor people to move than rich, because when you have nothing, all you need to do is buy a bus ticket.

Poor people don't have functional families or communities of support in a lot of cases, that's why they're poor.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Thursday July 30, 2020 @10:10AM (#23998352)
oof. Ignoring the uncomfortable and unsympathetic assumptions you are making, I will again reiterate what I have in other comments:

it would kind of defeat the purpose of the UBI if people had to spend it on mitigating the consequences of people taking advantage of them receiving UBI

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by kita99 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:03PM (#24000488)
Your argument makes no sense. We can just replace "UBI" with "job".

It would kind of defeat the purpose of making money with a job if people had to spend their earned money on mitigating the consequences of people taking advantage of them receiving money.

So... the takeaway is strive to earn less so you get preyed on less?

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Friday July 31, 2020 @12:28AM (#24005663)
> We can just replace "UBI" with "job".

I don't agree. Jobs are much more than just income. They provide purpose, skills (possibly for life and future work), experience (in general and for acquiring future work), possible medical or investment benefits, connections (social and for future work) etc. All these things mean that there are many situations where earning less or having to move would be outweighed by the benefits.

This is not the case in my example - UBI is JUST income. If the providing of UBI creates more problems and negates the income, then it loses its benefit and purpose (not saying this would be a guaranteed problem inherent to UBI, but that was the premise of the OP)

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by CuriouslyC on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:44PM (#24000264)
I'm not making any assumptions, I have quite a bit of experience being poor. How about you?
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by shlant on Friday July 31, 2020 @12:35AM (#24005700)
I would suggest that, whether or not you identify with/have been part of a group, you consider that your perspective/experience very possibly is not the experience of everyone else in that group.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by pharke on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:14AM (#23996811)
Wouldn't that only work if the other town didn't also have UBI? I think the conjecture is that if everyone, everywhere is suddenly guaranteed to have a certain minimum amount of money per month then landlords everywhere are going to raise rents. Who are the landlords that are just going to leave money sitting on the table at a cost to themselves? The only thing that could counter this reliably would be an increase in housing supply.

I actually think that would be a better solution than UBI, figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it, say by producing lower density functional neighbourhoods that have proper streets, places for business, community services, etc. and just build masses of them. Housing is the biggest cost after all and it's a large public works project that could be carried out everywhere. You'd have to fix the problem of corruption in projects of that nature though and that's unfortunately a much bigger challenge.

There was an article on here a while ago about a successful undertaking in Greece to build massive amounts of new housing without major public investment, maybe just do that? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-desig...

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bhl on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:58PM (#24003307)
> figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it

I think an issue with this approach is that it's top down, as as mentioned in the article, "those at the top can’t manage all the information about the economy".

A counter-argument may be to just let towns and cities decide what to develop then, since local people have the best information about their neighborhoods. However, 1. this is already the default method and has resulted in housing crises where NIMBYism is rampant. 2. UBI would also help in this case as you're increasing the demand for housing while increasing competition between people living there and not (assuming people want to move to the area in the first place).

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by sangli on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:56AM (#23996705)
Just move to other town? Is that a feasible solution?
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by pixelbash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:01AM (#23996738)
It is if you don't have to live somewhere specific to earn enough money to pay rent.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by sangli on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:26AM (#23997832)
Job is one part of life. A human is not like a variable in program that can be refactored into another class as needed.

What you are saying would work perfectly for a young college graduate, without much family or friends, who has no dependency or no one dependent on them.

Now imagine a young single mother or father that depends on their family for babysitting or caring for the child while they try to become functioning member of society.

Imagine someone with some health condition that needs access to certain medical facilities.

People live in cities and migrate to cities because they can access schools, colleges, entertainment, public transport, medical facilities, better opportunities, parks etc etc. They can't just pick and move and uproot themselves.

I think people who work in technology do not have enough exposure to the poor and struggling members of the society. I grew up in a really really poor family and when I talk to my coworkers it is very apparent that they don't understand poor people.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by pixelbash on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:38PM (#24002599)
Even moving somewhere else within the same city is a lot less hassle if you are less concerned with immediately having the work part of the equation figured out.

I am not a young graduate, uprooting now would be a big deal for various reasons. Neither are my friends in their 30's raising families - some of which are living with their parents for the kind of reasons you describe.

My point is that without being so close to the financial edge all the time, even less well off families can take a step back and make decisions that work best for the future. The stress associated with risk (like quitting a job) results in a scary amount of lock in for many people I know.

Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by dagurp on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:44AM (#23997426)
If you only have UBI anyway you might not be as tied down by your current job
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bhl on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:08PM (#24003399)
It's not a feasible solution for _everybody_. However on the net, by giving that option to _all_ renters, you will discourage the population of landlords from increasing rent in general.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bsenftner on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:09AM (#23997138)
That's not a feasible solution. That's, frankly, callus to believe people can just uproot their lives.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by zentiggr on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:20AM (#23997780)
On the anecdotal other hand, I've moved eighteen times in my life. Some of us not only don't mind, but given the opportunity, enjoy new places and new situations.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by sethammons on Thursday July 30, 2020 @11:19AM (#23999173)
Did each of those moves include raiding the dumpsters for boxes? Enlisting others to help pack and move? And taking a year of savings to cover a deposit?
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by SketchySeaBeast on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:53AM (#23998116)
But you also appear to have had the means to do so easily (or you wouldn't have moved 18 times) without UBI.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by snidane on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:03PM (#24003772)
If there ever is a universal economic constant then it is precisely the fact that rent always catches up to what people are making in that city.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by quotz on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:17AM (#23996824)
You also have that option to move to another town even before the UBI...
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by lmm on Thursday July 30, 2020 @10:41PM (#24005152)
Not when you don't have a job in that other town, and if you quit your job to move then you're not eligible for unemployment.
Re:Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 by bhl on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:00PM (#24003330)
Yes, but UBI lowers the risks involved in moving.