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Re:Google’s top search result is Google by onion2k on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:55AM (#23977056)
Build better alternatives and I'm on board. In the end, Google is a business - I would promote my own shit on the first vertical as well.

You: I wish people would build products that successfully compete with Google.

Also you: It's fine if Google do things that stop their competitors successfully competing with Google.

This is literally exactly the reason why anti-trust laws exist - to stop a company who are successful in one area (search, advertising) unfairly dominating other areas (maps, translation) by suppressing their competition. For all you know there might be a map provider that you'd prefer - but while Google leverage their advantage running the premier search engine to put themselves at the top of every geographic search you're never going to find out.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by ehsankia on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:16PM (#23977293)
The word "Compete" here is misleading. It's rather: I wish people would build better products than Google's.

According to you, Google should send users to a strictly worse app, so that it can become better over time? And unless it requires a lot of user data to become a better app, I don't see why it needs traffic from Google to become a better product.

Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should definitely link to it first.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by onion2k on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:27PM (#23977435)
Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should definitely link to it first.

Google Search should list the websites that best match the user's search terms ordered by a fair Pagerank score that doesn't emphasise Google's own properties. That's it. Google shouldn't be making subjective decisions about "site quality" (objective factors like speed, mobile optimization, malware etc are OK..). If I search for "Sunderland"[1] I get 3 news stories about the local football team and the next 50% of the page is Google Maps...

[1] https://imgur.com/a/1YAc6hE

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by jacobr1 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:05PM (#23978025)
I generally agree with your motivation. But spam/fraud and even semi-legit SEO gaming have basically made ignoring the "subjective" infeasible. There needs to a be some sort of "semantic" filter that returns results not just based on PageRank/TFIDF information but also some modeling of likely intent behind the query.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by magicalist on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:09PM (#23979518)
> Google Search should list the websites that best match the user's search terms

Ok, but define "best match".

> ordered by a fair Pagerank score that doesn't emphasise Google's own properties

Even ignoring link farming (which already ruined a lot of the web the first time around), inbound links to content is a proxy for quality of content, not an actual measure of quality of content.

It's just offloading the subjective part of search quality to the wisdom of the crowd, which often does not work out.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by 6510 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:33PM (#23980938)
I have the perfect formula. Just ignore how unrealistic it is.

We divide the knowledge and information into disciplines. We create awards in each discipline. If you accumulate enough awards you are offered the option to dedicate your life to the topic without exit strategy. (Quitting would cost 100 million) unless the topic is no longer of public interest.

You get: a house that you must live in, access to research facilities if (applicable), travel is pre-paid for if (applicable), a personal assistant who has to sign off on all of your expenses.

You yourself are not allowed to have cash or a bank account, no vacation and contact with friends and relatives is forbidden unless they can prove they have relevant expertise or are also in such committee.

Picture it, high priest of pokemon go. In charge of ordering search results and designing the portal widget.

No discrimination for artificial humans, we do full robotmancipation.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by baddox on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:59PM (#23977910)
What about click through rate and time spent on site? Those are objective, Google probably has the data in many cases, and Google’s own products (like Maps) probably do the best on those metrics.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by Jasper_ on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:43PM (#23981883)
If I spent a lot of time on a site, does that mean I am enjoying the site and rewarding it with time, or having trouble finding information and need to use it for longer?

Data doesn't tell you everything.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by ehsankia on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:07PM (#23982825)
I'm assuming when they see when a search click is the final click vs when the user comes back to click on something else instead. I'm assuming for most people, Maps/Translate widgets are their final destination.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by xapata on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:37PM (#23978469)
I care about speed, mobile optimization, and malware. Generalizing from my observation of myself, I expect others do as well.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by dmoy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:48PM (#23979901)
And spam. Don't forget that with just base pagerank, all you'd get today is spam.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by the_other on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:07PM (#23981653)
With the first page of results being mostly Google or paid ads, spam is roughly what we have today, too.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by xapata on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:44PM (#23989544)
I like Google's integrated approach. I don't see it as spam, which would be ads that I don't wish to see. I've tried other services, but prefer Google Maps, Google Flights, etc.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by Mirioron on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:58AM (#23977103)
But if Google search didn't send me to Google maps when I was looking for maps then I would explicitly go to Google maps. In that case there would be no chance for any competitor to do better.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by unethical_ban on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:09PM (#23977217)
Your logic is faulty. You weren't going to go to a competitor from the search page anyway.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by Mirioron on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:25PM (#23979053)
That's what I'm trying to say. When I search for "maps" I'm trying to go to Google maps. The same happens when I search for "translate".
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by addicted on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:37PM (#23979187)
Why would you want to go to goofle translate or google maps when you search for translate or google? Wouldn’t you want to go to the best service you could get?
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by res0nat0r on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:46PM (#23979874)
His point is those are the best.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by CarbyAu on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:52PM (#23982736)
Maybe that isn't his point. A lot of people don't use UI optimally.

They "Go to google, type what they want, google gives it to them."

Sure, you could click on the 9 dots on the top right and select maps for google maps.

But is that always there on every device, on every web browser, whether signed in with google account or not?

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by zepto on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:16PM (#23982882)
Yes, but the counter argument is that they are only the best because no competitor can get adequate attention to make the investment worthwhile.

Apple has the only viable alternatives to those two, and the only way they are able to distribute them is because they control the home screen of iOS.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by ksk on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:06PM (#23977181)
And how does one know that Google even has a maps service to go to? Google maps didn't start out great or even good (Its pretty good now). Google promotes their beta-level products over other mature products to the point the competition is starved of visitors, while Google iterates their own product. So now, after the fact, you can go "Well, there's no one else, I guess Google does the right thing in showing me Google maps as the first result".
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by jefftk on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:49PM (#23977751)
> Google maps didn't start out great or even good

That is not my memory. Google maps used AJAX to let you pan around. It was fluid, and really nice. What I had been using up until then was MapQuest, where you needed to click an arrow to move around, with long delays.

Disclosure: I work for Google

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by 6510 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:51PM (#23981064)
Google Earth was originally developed at Intrinsic Graphics in the late 1990s. October 2004, Google acquired Keyhole. Google maps started February 8, 2005.

It would have been easy to offer kml links and "force" the users into Google Earth. Before it was tinkered into a steaming pile of shit Keyhole was a truly fantastic product, with a lovely community, arguably the greatest thing since web browsers (with picasa & hello as a close 3rd and 4th)

For a web based thing the ajax maps was quite nice but today I really hate using it. The data is great tho and you cant complaint about the price.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by jefftk on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:25PM (#23982178)
> It would have been easy to offer kml links and "force" the users into Google Earth.

How so?

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by 6510 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:48AM (#23995970)
It was such superior experience. If the user has it on his box the map link can simply point at the google earth client.

Take route planning for example. It use to be that you could fly the route in google earth. A line on a paper like map with a bunch of dots is useful for finding a shorter or more preferable route but after you've made up your mind flying over the road from A to B allows you to drive or cycle without any map.

If the application is installed the search results can include tours. (people made countless illustrated tours that kept breaking with each api update until there were no tours left)

Google could probably embed google earth into web pages if the will was there.

We will see where https://earth.google.com/web/ ends up. For now it loads as if booting an OS but its quite smooth after that.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by elpool2 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#23977300)
It was a while ago, but I remember Google maps being far better than any other map service when it first launched.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by reaperducer on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:33PM (#23977540)
The reason Google Maps was successful in its early days wasn't because of its quality, it was because it was free.

The other options were just as good, but often you had to pay for them. With Google, you could repeatedly refine the bad results until you found something useful, because there was zero additional cost involved.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by atombender on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:14PM (#23979567)
Google Maps was revolutionary when it came out.

Maps had smooth, animated panning and zooming that updated the map in real time without reloading the page. MapQuest and the other major competitors at the time only allowed panning and zooming by clicking buttons on the side of the map, which scrolled a predefined number of steps and reloaded, at least initially, the entire page when you did so.

Google Maps was also less cluttered and used the browser's real estate much effectively. MapQuest was a small, cramped map by comparison.

Screenshots:

https://i2.wp.com/www.matthewhurst.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/websites/google-maps-we...

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by lern_too_spel on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:25PM (#23979052)
What nonfree maps were you using before? I used MapQuest and Yahoo! Maps before Google Maps. Both were free.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by sebastos on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:31PM (#23977499)
Revisionist history. What mapping service was comparable the day google maps launched? MapQuest? lmao.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by onion2k on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:41PM (#23977656)
Multimap was quite good. I remember integrating it in to a few sites in the very early 2000s. It wasn't quite as dynamic as Google Maps but it definitely worked pretty well. It was eventually bought by Microsoft and became Bing Maps.
Re:Google’s top search result is Google by s3r3nity on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:01PM (#23980663)
Actually yes - if you look at articles at the time, Mapquest was leading the antitrust charge against Google because the latter had JUST launched and yet was surfacing above Mapquest in rankings.

And when GMaps first started, it wasn’t the beast that it was today; sure it had some nifty UX improvements, but it was nothing close to competitors in the space at the time.

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by neya on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:09PM (#23978071)
> unfairly dominating other areas

Out of curiosity, what exactly about Maps is unfair? They made money, they invested it in better mapping technology. You could say the same about Apple too, they bundled their Maps application with every iPhone sold which you couldn't even uninstall for a long time. And they had more money than Google too - yet their maps application was and still is garbage.

It just so happens Google Maps is the better product here and has nothing to do with anti-competitiveness. I was in China and I tried using both Apple and Google Maps (via VPN). And guess which one lead me to a wrong railway station?

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by Ntrails on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:11PM (#23978899)
> Apple too, they bundled their Maps application with every iPhone sold which you couldn't even uninstall for a long time.

And even now, having done so, clicking on an address to copy it will take you to a page telling you to reinstall maps to see it...

Re:Google’s top search result is Google by s3r3nity on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:06PM (#23980696)
> They made money, they invested it in better mapping technology.

That’s the part that is illegal and anticompetitive: they didn’t make money from Maps to reinvest to create a better product. Rather, they invested revenue from other different markets for which they are exceedingly dominant, to invest and operate Maps at a loss (I.e. free and no revenue sources.)

>Apple

Apple did not have anywhere near dominant market share of devices when Maps came out. Antitrust cases hinge on that point. This is also why Bing can get away with many of the same tactics that Google uses : because Bing has very low market share of search compared to Google.