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Re:Banned math book by zdw on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:44AM (#23975675)
What's the copyright status on this book?

It's surprising to me that a new copy still costs $150 in 2020, when it was published in 1924, and both authors passed away 45+ years ago, and are thus unlikely to be "promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts".

Re:Banned math book by bombastry on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:32AM (#23976186)
The answer to this question is somewhat complex and depends on the country whose copyright laws you are talking about. Most copyright-abiding countries have adopted a copyright length of Life + 70 years, but several (most notably Canada) use Life + 50 years. However, there are a lot of exceptions in many of these countries regarding works created in the mid-20th century. The US, incredibly, has a copyright of 95 years for works published between 1924-1977, but a term of Life + 70 years for works published after that.

Since the beginning of this year, the original German edition of the book that was published in 1924 is in the public domain in the US (and most likely only the US). Unfortunately this applies only to this edition and not to any translated versions.

I looked around the front matter of the book and did not see any mention of a translator; presumably this means that Courant translated this himself. This means as soon as 50 years has elapsed from Courant's death (in 1972), all editions will be in the public domain in Canada and a few other countries (in 2023). In most other countries, this book will be in the public domain 20 years later than that (in 2043). The US is once again exceptional, where each edition will enter the public domain separately, 95 years after their publication. The English version of Volume 1 of this text in the Amazon preview appears to have been published in 1953, which would mean it would be in the public domain in 2049, well after it would be available in virtually every other country in the world.

Of course, all of this discussion above assumes that copyrights don't get extended again before these works enter the public domain. The US Supreme Court has ruled that arbitrarily extending copyrights before they expire is sufficient to satisfy the "limited Times" mentioned in the Constitution; what matters is apparently that the copyrights are set to expire at some point, not that they ever actually do.

Re:Banned math book by smnrchrds on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:51AM (#23977026)
> Most copyright-abiding countries have adopted a copyright length of Life + 70 years, but several (most notably Canada) use Life + 50 years.

Canada is now Life + 70. Article 20.62 of CUSMA (new NAFTA) requires copyright term to be no less than that.

https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/assets/pdfs/a...

Re:Banned math book by bombastry on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:29PM (#23977467)
Thanks for that information. I had not known that was a part of CUSMA.

From reading a Canadian law firm's analysis of the changes (https://www.blakes.com/insights/bulletins/2020/ip-post-nafta...), Canada has 2.5 years (until the end of 2023) to enact this change. This can also be seen in the link you provided in Article 20.89.4.c. (The link I provided mislabels this as Article 20.90. or perhaps refers to an alternate draft of the document.)

It appears that Canada has not enacted this law just yet, although I may be mistaken about that. Depending on when they do, Courant's work may or may not enter the public domain in 2023, although it seems more likely than not that the copyright term will be extended by then.

Re:Banned math book by bobcostas55 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:20AM (#23976698)
Someone could produce a new, free version from the now-liberated original German though.
Re:Banned math book by bombastry on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:11PM (#23977233)
That's true.

I found a copy of the original German (unfortunately in scanned, DJVU form), but it was somewhat tricky to find. This comment inspired me to upload it to the Internet Archive so that others can access it more easily (https://archive.org/details/methoden-der-mathematischen-erst...).

Re:Banned math book by TomMarius on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:44AM (#23976941)
Someone with GPT-3 access could give it a go - it is able to translate, right?
Re:Banned math book by snazz on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:23PM (#23979030)
GPT-3 guesses the next word or words after a given input, allowing it to write articles that make at least some sense. Translation of a textbook (especially math) would be way out of its wheelhouse.
Re:Banned math book by bobcostas55 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:30PM (#23979726)
Re:Banned math book by ranko on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:04AM (#23975885)
Hilbert died in 1943, so his copyright will have expired at the end of 2013 in many countries, including the UK and US

Courant died in 1973, so his copyright will expire at the end of 2043.

Re:Banned math book by softwarejosh on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:07AM (#23975917)
fucking disney
Re:Banned math book by wolfgke on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:44AM (#23976945)
A very smart move by the political system to make activists hate some impalpable company moloch named "Disney" instead of the concretely named congressmen/congresswomen who voted for the law for copyright extension.
Re:Banned math book by ShroudedNight on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:36PM (#23977587)
Indeed: https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-bill/2589

Notably, Sonny Bono for whom, along with the other sponsers I withhold invective purely out of respect of this community and its value of civil discourse.

I find the extension from 50 to 70 years extremely distasteful; manifest contempt by 'artists' for the commons and society's investment in their success.

Re:Banned math book by Apocryphon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:00PM (#23978757)
Congresspeople come and go, but Disney will reign eternal, partly because of lobbied-for legislation like this!
Re:Banned math book by shadowgovt on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:10PM (#23978878)
Don't misunderstand; they're hated too. The US Congress has something like a low-teens approval rating.

But between the two organizations, gerrymandering means the politicians can't be voted out but people can "vote" to lower Disney's status with their dollars.

Re:Banned math book by zaphar on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:49PM (#23979318)
It's weird though, because they are roughly about as effective at lowering Disney's status as they are at voting the politicians out because collective action problems are hard.
Re:Banned math book by KONAir on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:21PM (#23978240)
Eh, isn't this a given in a corporate state?
Re:Banned math book by fortran77 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:25AM (#23976119)
Disney doesn't pass laws. Congress does.
Re:Banned math book by vulcan01 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:38AM (#23976261)
Disney has done extensive lobbying to extend copyright terms. See the Mickey Mouse Protection Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

Re:Banned math book by csense on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:33AM (#23976817)
Passed by some of the finest Congressmen money can buy.
Re:Banned math book by boomboomsubban on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:15PM (#23977281)
The law passed the Senate with unanimous consent, it doesn't seem like there are congressmen out of their budget.
Re:Banned math book by JKCalhoun on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:38AM (#23976262)
Come on, we all know Congress would not have passed those laws if "companies" weren't spending millions on those politicians.
Re:Banned math book by oconnor663 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:42AM (#23976926)
I think the implication is that "rent seekers gonna seek" is a fact of life, and that "a government that resists rent seeking" is the part of the equation we might be able to control.
Re:Banned math book by Apocryphon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:02PM (#23978775)
Shouldn't both problems be tackled? Why should we accept rent seeking as inevitable? We could just as well accept political corruption as inevitable.
Re:Banned math book by oconnor663 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:46PM (#23980507)
> Why should we accept rent seeking as inevitable?

In my mind, a couple big reasons.

One, for the same reason that we accept a lot of awful things like murder as inevitable. Of course we'd rather get rid of these things, but it's unrealistic to think we'll get rid of them completely, so the systems we have in place for dealing with them when they happen will always be very important.

Two, because these things are often in the eye of the beholder. What I see as "rent seeking", you might see as "providing a public good". Most people (on HN at least) think current US copyright law represents a lot of rent seeking by Disney. But most of the same people still support some notion of copyright. There's no clear line where "public good that most people agree with" ends and "rent seeking" begins.

Re:Banned math book by simsla on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:16AM (#23976665)
Yes, but enabling this kind of lobbying is the responsibility of government.
Re:Banned math book by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:52PM (#23978643)
No, preventing it is the responsibility of the government. :-p

On a more serious note, there's not a lot that individuals can do about this – even individual politicians. The systems involved have to change pretty fundamentally to prevent lobbying from working. How do you think those systems can be changed to accomplish that?

Re:Banned math book by Avicebron on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:17PM (#23978965)
Maybe to start there could be mandatory disclosure of all donations/vacations/other lobbying tactics that each senator is engaged in, correlated with their track record of voting and publicly disclosed and actively monitored.

I agree it's a hard problem, but I think with a big enough pool of information everyone could get a letter/email saying that politician x cost you y amount this year by voting this way. I know I would be compelled to make some changes.

Re:Banned math book by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:33PM (#23979145)
1. Promise to give lots of money to the senators who vote for their interests well enough. This doesn't even have to be targeted. 2. A neutral party collates all that information, and publishes it. 3. Wait until the first sufficiently-helpful senator retires, and is no longer bound by the rules. 4. Reward them. 5. Wait. 6. Profit.

Better than the status quo, since only huge companies will still be able to effectively lobby, but introduces problems of its own. That is, assuming the system works as intended. Which it won't.

Because how do you make sure the disclosure is mandatory? This punishes honest lobbyers (and honest lobbyees) more than it punishes dishonest ones; if all politicians are being lobbied evenly from all possible causes, but cause B's lobbying is secretive, politicians are incentivised to vote for cause B (i.e. against ¬B, which they are being publicly lobbied by).

This system does incentivise not being the ones to lobby, though – assuming there's no way to do lobbying that appears to be ¬B lobbying, so the politicians can be virtuous and vote B, which makes the “¬B lobbyists” lobby harder because obviously their bribes weren't big enough…

Re:Banned math book by lawn on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:42AM (#23976298)
And Disney bribes them to. (But we don't call it that).
Re:Banned math book by mdavis6890 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:56PM (#23977861)
It's hard to tell the difference between a bribe and extortion.

"I'll give you $1M if you extend the copyright timeline."

"If you don't give me $1M I'll let your copyright expire."

Does anybody else believe that congresspeople should be paid $10M/yr, indexed to inflation? This would be a drop in the federal budget, but would do a lot I think to curb both bribery and extortion.

Re:Banned math book by dependenttypes on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:47PM (#23978578)
> but would do a lot I think to curb both bribery and extortion

I disagree. If anything it will push them for more bribery and extortion. Wealth seeks wealth and there is never enough wealth.

Re:Banned math book by retSava on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:40AM (#23984585)
Agree.

Of course Disney aims to maximize their value of the IP, also via methods that most don't feel are honest and net good for society.

But that's where law makers should be expected to hold back and take the opinions and interests of others into account too.

Re:Banned math book by EvanAnderson on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:41AM (#23976294)
Individuals don't have the funds necessary to influence Congress. Disney does.
Re:Banned math book by TallGuyShort on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:02PM (#23977143)
We're talking about individuals in Congress. They absolutely have the funds necessary to influence their own behavior.
Re:Banned math book by EvanAnderson on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:10PM (#23977223)
I definitely disagree about that. Look at how much time a Congressperson spends raising funds. They clearly don't have the funds necessary to influence their own behavior. They seek out donors and act in those donors' interest in legislative matters. (I'm not saying they work exclusively in donors' interest, but it's clear that donors' interests are taken into account.)
Re:Banned math book by drdeca on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:57PM (#23978715)
Eh? Even if a person would not end up with enough funds to secure re-election if they chose to vote against a measure, does not mean that they don’t have the freedom to vote against it.

They are still responsible for their actions even if the alternative actions would be highly against their self-interest.

Even a person who is threatened with death if they don’t take an action, is still free to either take or not take the action. They might be justified in taking the action on the basis of said threat, even if the action would ordinarily be forbidden, but they are still making a choice.

Re:Banned math book by TallGuyShort on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:58PM (#23977894)
I'm also open to donations, but that doesn't mean I don't have enough money to do my job and act with integrity.
Re:Banned math book by falcor84 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:21PM (#23978251)
But does keeping your job next year require you to spend more than $1M?

And yes, in about 90% of rates in the US, the person who spent more won: https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-sp...

Re:Banned math book by TallGuyShort on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:30PM (#23978377)
I'd prefer it if they had no chance in hell anyway: https://www.termlimits.com/
Re:Banned math book by msla on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:57PM (#23979395)
Term limits shift power to lobbying groups and aides who know what the Hell's going on and how to work the system.
Re:Banned math book by TallGuyShort on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:23PM (#23979665)
So we're back to blaming Disney for the fact that legislators can't be bothered to vote with their conscience?
Re:Banned math book by msla on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:27PM (#23979697)
No, we're acknowledging that legislating is a skilled job, and that experience counts.
Re:Banned math book by TallGuyShort on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:59PM (#23980021)
Look at the average tenure of a US legislator, look at Copyright Law in the US, and say that again.
Re:Banned math book by msla on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:32PM (#23980370)
Sure: Legislators have to prioritize lots of different things, not just copyright terms, and the skill of making deals while operating within the rules and traditions of a legislature is one they must learn on the job. Having a bunch of short-timers wouldn't make copyright law reform any more likely, and it certainly wouldn't make anyone more likely to vote their conscience. Further, copyright law isn't an issue of conscience for most legislators to begin with, no matter how long they've been in office, as most of them, like most of their constituents, don't understand the value of public domain or the importance of shared culture.
Re:Banned math book by slowmovintarget on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:29PM (#23980345)
Disney buys the laws.
Re:Banned math book by JKCalhoun on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:40AM (#23976283)
Easily found on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/MethodsOfMathematicalPhysicsVolu...

I, not focusing on math in school, had not heard of the book. But became curious reading the glowing praise in the article and this thread.

Re:Banned math book by ColanR on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:58PM (#23978728)
Re:Banned math book by archgoon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:34PM (#23979761)
> "promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts".

The value of their work doesn't end with their death. This means that they can sell the rights prior to dying and receive some of that value.