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Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by ghostcluster on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:52PM (#23971128)
Tell that to the industrial midwest. If you look at statistics of # factories in the US over time, in every size category, the number of factories is going down.

Chip manufacturing is a special case as well. China is using massive state spending to build a competitive infrastructure in its country. Intel is the only competetive industrial chip fabrication presence in the US and should receive a similar focus from our leadership if we don't want to fully hollow-out the US' production capacity.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by bgorman on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:03PM (#23971202)
This is too simplistic.

Samsung and Globalfoundires have fabs in the US that are close to leading edge. There are other fabs that are leading edge for other types of chips e.g. Texas Instruments

The fact is that the capital expenditure costs to create a leading edge Fab are insane, and economies of scale form a big moat. The economics do not really support more than a few leading edge fabs, and now that Intel has had internal issues they are behind. Maybe they will catch up- however throwing money at the problem does not seem likely to me to fix the problem. Moore's law is ending and the difference between die shrinks isn't as dramatic as it used to be. It remains to be seen if electron tunnelling can be easily be dealt with... However fabs are sexy and people will chase the money until the process breaks down.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by objektif on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:45PM (#23971462)
So we should just give up then and hand the IP to China? I do not understand this way of thinking Intel became Intel because of innovations they did.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by egsmi on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:01AM (#23972749)
Technically we’re selling it to China, not giving it. Notice:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sale...

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by nottorp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:00AM (#23974098)
Intel are assholes enough, commercially, now. How do you think they would act with the US government's support?

That would actually be an anti consumer move.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by coliveira on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:00PM (#23971177)
Do you mean throwing public money at a private company? How is that even doable in a capitalist country and why are Intel shareholders the ones blessed to receive free capital influx?
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by ghostcluster on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:05PM (#23971221)
Like I said, the US is unique in its mass deindustrialization. Somehow Germany, Japan, and South Korea have avoided it. Last I checked, they are capitalist countries as well.

Directly throwing money at a company isn't the only way for the state to support an industry. I'm not a policy wonk, but there are other ways to do it, and I think the US would be making a mistake if they let this chip fabrication capacity disappear.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by usrnm on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:34AM (#23972607)
Not really unique, Great Britain is another example, although the underlying reasons might be somewhat different.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by beaunative on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:56AM (#23972721)
Intel's problem isn't with money. Intel is a hugely profitable company last time I checked. And It definitely has a lot more money than its challengers, receiving government fund or not. It's quite funny we are so used to this kind of capitalist view that thinks money solves all our issue.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by coliveira on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:00PM (#23977945)
That's the very problem. It is not lack of money that is making Intel to lose ground, it is simply too easy for them to send checks to their investors and give millionaire bonuses to their executives. They're following the footsteps of IBM, GE, and Oracle.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by robertlagrant on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:07AM (#23973499)
> It's quite funny we are so used to this kind of capitalist view that thinks money solves all our issue.

This is silly. No one thinks that. You're just not telling the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient".

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by lmm on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:24PM (#23971327)
> Somehow Germany, Japan, and South Korea have avoided it. Last I checked, they are capitalist countries as well.

Japan and South Korea are not really; their economies are largely organised by conglomerates with strong political ties (and often significant nationalistic tendencies). There is capitalism in Germany but it's kept on a much tighter leash than the US in terms of labour laws.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by unixhero on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:03AM (#23972445)
This is accurate. SK has Chaebol and Japan has Keiretsu which has revolving doors to technocrat bureaucracies and governments where jobs, power and money are free flowing between these entities.

This is historical fact, not a theory.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by shard on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:41PM (#23971785)
South Korea is very reliant on China for manufacturing, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's even more than the US considering the close proximity of China and the lack of natural resources in Korea. It's generally acknowledged by Koreans that the most abundant resource in Korea is human brain power, especially with the high college graduation rate (50%+, versus 30%+ in the US). The stigma of manual labor jobs such as manufacturing and agriculture are very strong, leading to a rapidly aging workforce in those sectors, and this trend, like in many other post-industrial nations, continues to increase.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by mikepurvis on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:06PM (#23971228)
The US does plenty of throwing public money at private companies. Certain industries (banking, airlines, energy, agriculture) seem to show up at the trough on a fairly regular basis for their turn to be bailed out.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by bgorman on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:04PM (#23971215)
National security. See Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrupp Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc...
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by stainforth on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:41PM (#23971427)
To the detriment of humans elsewhere suffering the consequences of those weapons
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by bobmalone123 on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:55PM (#23971535)
Like the burgers you flip that feed soldiers that shoot? The capitalist chain reaches every one. You are equally guilty then? Nonsense.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by minerjoe on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:52PM (#23971843)
I like this. We are all culpable.

Every single human that spends a single dollar is directly and demonstrably connected to systems that are rapidly (in historical proportions) destroying almost everything that humans of past eras considered wealth and value.

Mother earth.

Downvote this, but let it sink in.

There are humans on this planet that are not fueling these consumptive mechanisms. I hope.

How can we detach ourselves from these systems as we build out alternative systems?

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by alexisread on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:29AM (#23974249)
If we reframe the problem as: How do we run an economy not based around GDP growth, ie. Not based around birthing more people to increase labour? Japan is ahead of the curve here in that it has an ageing population, they appear to have placed their bet on robotics.

Fundamentally this is an energy issue, with enough free energy everyone can have a high standard of living ie. BI becomes possible, we can automate away most mundane jobs with cheap robots (BOM goes down with cheap energy).

With a good standard of living, births drop- viz population charts globally except Africa, thus we get into a virtuous cycle.

The only issue is the environmental impact of lots of energy in the ecosystem, I'm not sure how that would pan out.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by minerjoe on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:13PM (#23980770)
I don't buy this.

We are wasting massive amounts of energy.

20 lanes of stop-and-go SUV's all single driver traveling over an hour to jobs that they hate. Terrajules of energy to create a single piece of electronics designed to break in less than 2 years. Massive manufacturing of throw away disposable items. The list goes on.

This is Hacker news. Que's Computer Users Dictionary 5th edition defines hack:

"An inordinately clever rearrangement of existing system resources that results, as if by magic, in a stunning improvement in system performance - or an equally stunning prank."

We need to wisely use what we already have.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by beaunative on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:00AM (#23972744)
Build another one, then the story goes that you have to build weapons to defend it against "the old systems", as now the cake is all divided and such, and there is no new world to discover on earth but in space.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by mycall on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:30PM (#23971358)
Who make's their chips?
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by babesh on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:37PM (#23971398)
That is basically what happened in the 1980s in the US with SEMATECH. I remember a computer tv show in the 80s talking about government participation. I didn’t hear qualms about it then.

I think it was fear of lost of the memory business to Japanese companies. It worked out for the US in that Intel switch to and dominated the CPU business and you had the rise of fabless. .

See https://issues.org/van_atta/

The article is very interesting in describing the origin of EUV and the company making it and the source of the research.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by AlexandrB on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:04PM (#23971216)
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by ethbro on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:07PM (#23971232)
> Do you mean throwing public money at a private company? How is that even doable in a capitalist country

Lockheed Martin. Boeing. Raytheon. General Dynamics. Northrop Grumman. Huntington Ingalls. United Technologies.

Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by lrnStats on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:12PM (#23971262)
SpaceX
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by gowld on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:25PM (#23971328)
Or assess tariffs on foreign imports from nations that don't compete under the same labor and environmental rules as the USA.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by duskwuff on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:18PM (#23971673)
That would likely make matters worse, not better. Placing tariffs on goods from SE Asian countries (including, but not limited to, China) would increase the cost of manufacturing many products in the US which rely on materials from those countries, making those products less competitive in foreign markets.
Re:Intel ousts its chief engineer, shakes up technical group... by 29athrowaway on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:02PM (#23971201)
Would you open a manufacturing plant in a location where people don't agree to anything, not even wearing a mask that is in their own best interest? I would not.