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Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by SamReidHughes on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:50AM (#23963844)
If the USPS is getting lots of business, why would they need more funding? The issue here is simply a temporary Coronavirus situation combined with how the USPS runs their business.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by michaelmcdonald on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:21AM (#23964004)
Did you not read the part about how they have to fund their retirees health program up through 2054? That's millions to billions of dollars that they have to set aside for potential future costs decades away. No other government program or service is required to do this.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by cwhiz on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:53AM (#23964206)
Maybe all cities and states should have to do this? We have a massive pension crisis in the US. Many cities and states are not even 50% funded. It’s a looming disaster.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by x86_64Ubuntu on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:10AM (#23964300)
Do you not see what it's going to do with the USPS? Why would you want it done with cities and states, unless your goal is to privatize entire cities and states.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by jcranmer on Monday July 27, 2020 @02:35PM (#23967998)
It turns out there's a difference in the way the private sector and the public sector account for pensions. In the private sector, if your actuarial numbers tell you that the pension is going to ultimately cost $1 million, then you have to have $1 million in the bank right now to fully fund it. But for public sector accounting, you can figure that the magic market money tree is going to top you up by 7% each year and so you'd only need, say, $800k right now to "fully fund" that same $1 million pension. The "onerous" USPS pension obligations is really forcing the USPS to fully fund the pension according to private sector accounting. [1]

This explains a lot about pensions. First, having to have the entire pension cash value up front makes pensions extraordinarily expensive: giving someone a $1k pay raise puts you over $20k out-of-pocket for that pension. Consequently, the private sector abandoned pensions because they were unaffordable. The other observation is that, because almost all public pension funds have assumed unrealistically high growth rates, so consequently their funding rates have consistently slipped.

The truth of the matter is that virtually all public-sector pensions are in exactly the same boat as USPS's pension is. It's just that the governments are more effective at sweeping their pension issues under the rug, while they have forced the USPS to have its pension issue sit in broad daylight.

We should be pushing to force the same reckoning on cities and states sooner rather than letting things deteriorate while thinking we'll magically make up lost ground in the next decade.

[1] Edit: As an addendum, the USPS is specific required to 100% fund its pension benefit. This 100% funding requirement is actually legally unique, although a decent portion of the private sector does seek to do so.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by triceratops on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:31PM (#23968559)
> Consequently, the private sector abandoned pensions because they were unaffordable.

So a pay cut by another name? Because even if pensions aren't available, individuals still need money to retire on

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by jcranmer on Monday July 27, 2020 @04:03PM (#23968840)
I'm not sure. In a traditional pension scheme, the company kicks money into the pension fund, and this kick of money plus the internal investment income of the fund provides the assets to cover the liability. In modern 401k schemes, the company kicks some money (in addition to the employee kicking money) into the 401k to generate the internal investment income to cover the liability.

It would be a pay cut if the modern salary plus employer match were less than the prior salary plus employer contribution to the pension fund. I do not know if this is the case (especially when you maximize the match). I also do not know to what degree companies were underfunding the pensions in the past. My suspicion is that the upper-middle-class who maximize employer match are no worse off, perhaps better off, but that the median employee is worse off.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by Tyrek on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:37AM (#23964489)
The argument here is that it's all shell games otherwise if the money isn't set aside - e.g. look at the broader trend with social security's solvency. With the way public funding has trended, it would not surprise me if any unfunded programs simply ran out of cash at some point.

There isn't an easy answer to balance the needs of existing liabilities (pension commitments) with financial operations - the problem with the USPS was (I believe) the catch-up funding required to meet funding requirements, and not the actual funding itself.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by jschwartzi on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:57AM (#23966322)
Social Security is insolvent because congress keeps borrowing from the trust fund that we pay into to cover obligations in the general budget. It has nothing to do with shell games. Fundamentally the problem is that the congressional budgets are stealing money from my generation and then blaming the Social Security Administration for mismanaging the trust fund.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by RHSeeger on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:43AM (#23964527)
If you're going to offer a pension, a guaranteed amount of money in the future, then you should be making sure you can pay it; guaranteed. If making sure you can keep that promise is too burdensome, then you should not be making that promise.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by criley2 on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:28AM (#23964860)
It's absurd to say this and honestly I don't know how anyone who understands the scale of the numbers here and the impact these programs have on society could think this.

Pensions are funded by the next generation, just like Social Security and Welfare.

You pay for the previous generation in exchange for the next generation paying for you.

Without this kind of offset, you end up with as much as 10-15% of your population as indigent elderly, homeless and starving, who become MAJOR financial burdens on their children (and I mean MAJOR -- ask someone from China or a similar country about it) or who become homeless or die.

It's unfeasible to set aside the money all at once, and in fact hoovering that much money out of the economy and into investments would have a noticable effect on the economy. You're basically suggesting something outrageous like 5% of GDP stop being transfer payments to poor people who spend it immediately and start being investments into government treasuries and corporate bonds.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by jasonpbecker on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:48AM (#23965043)
Actually, pensions are paid for by returns to investing funds, not the next generation-- at least that was the idea. The problem is that:

1. Governments don't put even the actuarially required amounts into pension funds that assume 7-9% rates of return on fund investments. 2. Governments have been slow to adjust their expectations on returns, since 7-9% is far less achievable than it was in the 80s and 90s when interest rates were much higher.

Permanent low interest rates, economic downturns, and underfunding pension funds together have created an untenable environment. The cash isn't there in many municipal and state pension funds, and earning that much in returns is laughably difficult or requires an inordinate amount of payments now.

Now, it's absolutely true that the USPS is being held to a ridiculous and overcorrected standard in this case. But it's not the case that our current pension obligations, in many of these local and state retirement funds, can be paid for through current employee cash receipts.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by cwhiz on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:22AM (#23965325)
It's ironic that you cite social security, which is a giant unfunded liability. Pensions don't actually have to be funded by the next generation. That's just the asinine way we have it set up here in the US. It relies on a never ending baby boom and economic expansion. Surprise surprise, it doesn't really work all that well. Hence social security funded at 70% and many city and state pensions funded at less than 50%.

What we should actually be doing is pay as you go. You pay into the pension and you get out what you paid, plus growth. We could have switched to this model at any point over the last 70 years if American society wasn't so addicted to endlessly kicking shit down the road and punting on problems.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by arrosenberg on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:25PM (#23966589)
> It's ironic that you cite social security, which is a giant unfunded liability.

Social security is not an unfunded liability. If you look at your paycheck you will see a line that explicitly goes toward funding social security. It is currently underfunded due to (1) Congressional malfeasance; and (2) the $120K cap on paying into the fund.

Even the underfunding is nowhere near as bad as advertised - current funding is sufficient to pay full benefits through 2035 and about 80% of benefits from 2035-2094. If we pay back the borrowed money and remove the income cap the funding issue would resolve.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by vkou on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:05PM (#23967024)
Yes, but how are we going to prevent further congressional malfeasance between now and 2094? One of the two parties is not going to stop trying to undermine social security every chance it gets in over the next 75 years...
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by arrosenberg on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:19PM (#23967193)
We either take responsibility for it as citizens or we get what we deserve.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by cwhiz on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:46PM (#23967518)
Social security is not underfunded.

It is only underfunded due to these two reasons.

Well, which is it? If it were simple to make social security solvent at full promised benefits then surely we would?

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by arrosenberg on Monday July 27, 2020 @02:01PM (#23967688)
You claimed it was unfunded, not underfunded. Please read more carefully.

And no, surely we wouldn't. The Republican Party wants to destroy Social Security, they aren't interested in anything that would make it stronger.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by cwhiz on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:45AM (#23964535)
Would you rather have bankrupt cities and states? Because that is where we are headed and we are stomping on the accelerator just as fast as we can.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by NovemberWhiskey on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:11AM (#23965243)
I'd like to see constructive alternative proposals.

Today, many cities and states have underfunded pensions following a continually worsening trajectory. The scale is enormous. Please take a read about the state of public pensions in Illinois, for example.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by SilasX on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:31AM (#23966050)
If you're not profitable while funding pensions at their present discounted value, you're not profitable to begin with, and this requirement only revealed it.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by jschwartzi on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:55AM (#23966313)
Regardless of what their pension obligations are, shouldn't the financial stance be determined by actual financial planners instead of the US congress? That's what everyone else in the world does if they need to plan for a future payout. They pay someone to do the math. In this case Congress made the decision, and I suspect for politically motivated reasons.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by SilasX on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:37PM (#23966720)
In the same real world, every other corporation is required to set aside the present discounted value of promised pensions. We learned our lesson from the GMs and Bethlehem Steels of the world.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by thephyber on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:34PM (#23968581)
City and state pension managers only need to change their stupid formulas to account for actual risk and variance in annual returns -- not some mythical 8% annual no matter how good or bad the economy does. Yes, some cities have been underfunding even the contribution amount and they should be held to account.

But the claims of unfunded liabilities are far overstated. The worst of them assumes that you have to have the pension fully funded for a new employee on the day they start working which is ridiculous in any business.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by pnw_hazor on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:28PM (#23967299)
Post Office Pensions: Some Key Myths And Facts

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ebauer/2020/04/14/post-office-p...

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by SamReidHughes on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:29AM (#23964068)
Did you not read the part where they only have to prefund accrued benefits? Oh wait, the article didn't include that part, did it.
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by addicted on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:40AM (#23964124)
Source?
Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by soldierof4chan on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:54AM (#23964214)
The bill itself describes the funding schedule: https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/house-bill/6407

Regardless, the “pre-funding” period is over and the fund is running a deficit as retirees are currently paid from it, so it’s a moot point.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by addicted on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:15AM (#23964747)
“ Establishes in the Treasury the Postal Service Retiree Health Benefits Fund, to be administered by OPM. Requires the Postal Service, beginning in 2007, to compute the net present value of the future payments required and attributable to the service of Postal Service employees during the most recently ended fiscal year”

Compute the net present value of future payments does not sound like “accrued” benefits at all. It sounds like future payments which is the opposite of accrued benefits.

I don’t know the details of USPS’s finances, but reading that bill it seems they basically got rid of pensions around 2007

“ Postal Civil Service Retirement and Health Benefits Funding Amendments of 2006 - (Sec. 802) Relieves the Postal Service of an obligation to contribute matching amounts to its employees' civil service retirement.”

but required that all existing pensions be prefunded.

That’s an extremely onerous requirement and whether the fund has been funded or not, it will still affect service drastically. Even if the fund has been paid off it’s not a moot point because that’s potentially billions of dollars that they cannot use to fund service and instead is waiting in an account somewhere to be used decades from now.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by zaroth on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:54AM (#23965094)
> ... net present value of the future payments required and attributable to the service of Postal Service employees during the most recently ended fiscal year

This means you calculate the total amount of added expected additional pension payments earned over the last year of work.

So, if last year you could have retired with a pension estimated to pay out $100k, and this year your pension would be estimated to pay out $120k due to the additional year of service, then that number would be $20k.

Since that $20k is not paid out all at once, but over a period of time in the future, you calculate the net present value which reduces the amount based on a “discount” rate which is the expected rate of return on your cash. So, $20k paid out over 10 years starting 10 years from now is discounted to, e.g. $14k, which is how much money you need invested today to fully fund that liability in the future.

To sum it up, in that hypothetical example, the USPS is supposed to be banking that additional $14k to find the future liability.

It’s actually exactly what anyone running a pension program absolutely should be doing.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by NovemberWhiskey on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:21AM (#23965321)
>it’s not a moot point because that’s potentially billions of dollars that they cannot use to fund service

In fact, it is somewhat of a moot point - the USPS has been accruing, but not paying. Service is being funded.

The USPS actually stopped paying meaningfully to PSRHBF back in 2011. At this point, they're somewhat over $47bn behind in payments.

Please take a look at the USPS 10-K to get the fine detail here.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by soldierof4chan on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:47PM (#23971479)
The other commenters did will to address your misconceptions but I want to further elaborate on this one.

> Even if the fund has been paid off it’s not a moot point because that’s potentially billions of dollars that they cannot use to fund service and instead is waiting in an account somewhere to be used decades from now

The fund is not paid off as the Post Office never actually made the vast majority of its payments. It's also not in an account waiting to be used. It is being used right now to fund current retirees and it's running deficits. The reason it's a moot point is because even if this requirement were removed today it would operate in the same way i.e. pay as you go.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by ogre_codes on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:10PM (#23966445)
They can’t set their own rates and have an obligation to deliver everything, which leads to them shipping many things (not just Amazon) for free. There is no other country in the world, no other private business that lets you send first class letters for $0.60 for a reason. For years they were also wrangled into a treaty obligation that forced them to ship small packages from China for a loss.

They also have huge retirement —prefunding obligations which is pretty much unprecedented in either private business or government agencies.

All of these public obligations are poorly thought out and largely out of the control of the USPS itself. People bitch about USPS being inefficiently run and that’s true to some extent, but the most fundamental issues they struggle with revolve around factors beyond the control of USPS management.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by missedthecue on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:23PM (#23969530)
>but the most fundamental issues they struggle with revolve around factors beyond the control of USPS management.

In other words, they are inefficient.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by lexicality on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:02AM (#23963895)
John Oliver did an interesting video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoL8g0W9gAQ&t=4s

TL;DR: Deliberate government action to defund them has resulted in them having way less money than you would expect.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by nemacol on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:11AM (#23963940)
It has been a while since I have seen that one, but if I recall the two main points were

1 - Forced to save billions over a short period of time for retirements benefits. 2 - Inability to set their own prices, like a business would.

The extra business from Amazon should have been a massive boon to USPS. But it seems the ridiculously low rate they got into, plus the couple factors above (and I am sure many others - like being required to maintain rural routes at a loss) has put them in a bad situation.

Re:Amazon gets priority while mail gets delayed, say US lett... by nybble41 on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:41PM (#23966760)
They should just spin off the USPS as a purely private enterprise—no more monopoly on letter delivery or bureaucratic micromanagement regarding prices—and instead periodically solicit bids from all the carriers (including the former USPS) for the core services. Whoever wins the bid would commit to flat-rate nationwide delivery of first-class letters and receive a negotiated subsidy for each delivery depending on the route.