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Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by techie128 on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:50AM (#23963028)
While technologically cool, I think Japan could benefit from young immigrants from different parts of the world to solve their human capital problem. This benefits everybody.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by dageshi on Monday July 27, 2020 @04:58AM (#23963366)
This argument can be made about every technological advancement ever made. "Don't fix it with technology, just throw more people at it". That isn't how you make progress and it doesn't benefit everybody it just encourages stagnation.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by techie128 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:47AM (#24058254)
You make a good point. I did not say that we should solve all problems via immigration. There are classes of problems that immigrants can’t solve. I’m just saying we should prioritize those problems above such problems. Examples include, researching cures for incurable illnesses such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, prosthetics to solve blindness, deafness, artificial limbs, etc. I feel automation can benefit various problem classes without generating mass unemployment.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by fennecfoxen on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:07AM (#23963926)
It sure has helped the rest of the world conquer poverty. That doesn’t seem like stagnation to me.

The more we have immigrants stocking supermarket shelves and constructing infrastructure the more we can focus our high end R&D on things like biotech, medicine, space, and the like. That’s economics; comparative advantage is real.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by dageshi on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:17AM (#23963979)
That's not what OP is arguing. He appears to be arguing that technological solutions should not be tried in cases where immigration can solve the problem.

If Japan can automate many of these things they will end up being leagues ahead of those who solved it with immigration and will end up selling the solutions to the rest of the world.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by fennecfoxen on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:03PM (#23968275)
But why should they focus on solving "problems immigration can solve" as opposed to "problems immigration cannot solve?" You could end up leagues ahead of the rest of the world in something like biotech or materials sciences. There's no intrinsic gain to be had by weighting the problem space.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by fiblye on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:24AM (#23964397)
More countries are on track to have declining populations than there are countries that have anywhere near enough people to export a labor class to do hard manual labor around the world. In fifty years, the countries above the replacement rate will be slim and mostly down to a few African countries.

Countries relying on immigration are going to get strangled and fall behind those that found ways to continue to develop themselves.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by johnwalkr on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:39AM (#23964498)
Japan is one of the easiest countries for skilled people to immigrate to. No quota, no requirement to try to hire locally first, fast-track visa (few weeks), as little as 1 year to get permanent residency.

http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/index.html

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by 0xffff2 on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:04PM (#23968288)
Do construction trades count as "skilled people" in the immigration context in Japan? Usually when I hear "skilled" in that context I think of doctors and PhD researchers.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by johnwalkr on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:45AM (#23974321)
Not for the visa I linked but there are a lot of foreigners working construction and assembly lines on other visa types. I think it’s generally managed by some kind of labour company and the jobs are mostly low wage.

I wanted to double check so I googled it and found this, looks like there’s new visas for things like construction: https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000459527.pdf

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by agustif on Monday July 27, 2020 @04:08AM (#23963114)
I mean immigrants are always second-class citizens in japan, I don't see how they would prefer immigrants to robots over there...
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by jasonwatkinspdx on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:36PM (#23966707)
People are snarking you but this is absolutely true. I know multiple people that went over in their 20s. All but one came back within 10 years. People are very polite, but it's also clear there's a sort of invisible force field always around you that drastically limits your professional options beyond english translation/tutoring work. Forming a social network is nearly impossible.

One of my friends born there did his undergrad and masters in aerospace engineering in the US as there's a lot more programs and jobs here. When he went back due to family obligations he discovered he wouldn't be able to get a job beyond translating manuals. He's been told over and over again that if he had to leave Japan for school then clearly something must be wrong with him. So besides the undercurrent of racism, similar problems are found by native born citizens that don't conform to these expectations.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by harpratap on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:47AM (#23965558)
> immigrants are always second-class citizens

That is true for every country on the planet.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by thaumasiotes on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:04PM (#23966390)
Indeed, that is the entire point of "citizen" status.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by harpratap on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:31PM (#23966660)
I don't think you understood that statement. It means you'll never be treated like "one of us" regardless of your passport and visa status.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by imtringued on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:51AM (#23963851)
How is that innovative? Everyone is importing immigrants like there is no tomorrow. It's actually interesting how Japan is choosing a less optimal strategy that forces them to innovate or get left behind. If it pays off they will be leaders in robotics.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by hungryhobo on Monday July 27, 2020 @12:54PM (#23966909)
pretty sure they already are
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Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by totetsu on Monday July 27, 2020 @04:37AM (#23963263)
I'm sure robots can also be made to keep up the life of society and culture on the weekend too.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by baybal2 on Monday July 27, 2020 @04:38AM (#23963267)
Why do you disagree? What are the "challenges" you suggest?
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Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by akiselev on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:16AM (#23963437)
> I live in one of the more multicultural cities in the Western world. I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture more than superficially. I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary, which I will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice.

What city do you live in, exactly?

I live in Los Angeles - one of several metropolises that I've lived in on several continents - and the vast majority of second and third generation immigrants I've met have had no trouble assimilating into their host culture. As an immigrant, in fact, I have struggled to find any zero or first generation immigrants that do not bemoan that their offspring are completely detached from their culture. They consider themselves lucky if their grandkids still speak their "native" tongue at a primary school level.

What I have seen everywhere, however, is a lot of small minded people who are only capable of differentiating each other by superficial ethnic stereotypes, dominated by skin color and religion. They've always got "plenty of evidence" that they "will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice."

My apologies if I've got the wrong impression, but perhaps your understanding and methods of "assimilation" are fundamentally flawed.

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Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by imtringued on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:34AM (#23964098)
From the perspective of someone who is not living in a large city I think you are primarily talking about the properties of large cities, not about assimilation in general. Large cities tend to form an excessive amount of enclaves because they allow hyper specialization. I always hear about people wanting to live in large cities because you can find a large group of people or go to businesses specializing in what you like no matter how niche your interest is. Cultures are not exactly niche. Millions of people can share the same culture.

However, what you seem to fail to grasp is that what you are seeing isn't actually the native culture of these people. It's actually an "americanized" (or localized) version of Bangladesh culture. If you forced them to go back to Bangladesh they would be considered too "americanized" and treated almost like outsiders there.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by fearingreprisal on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:05AM (#23964281)
> From the perspective of someone who is not living in a large city I think you are primarily talking about the properties of large cities, not about assimilation in general...

No, I am talking about assimilation. I'm only concerned with the end product of the immigration. I'm not opposed to large-scale urban multiculturalism on some spiritual basis, I'm opposed to it because I don't believe it produces an actual desirable outcome. It sounds like you've just spoken to my point: That in large cities immigrant populations do not assimilate to the host culture because of the availability of said enclaves. If you're the one immigrant in a village of 100, you may need to make a bigger effort to assimilate into the host community. This is true. Your post seems to agree with me on the point that many immigrants favour large cities because there is less obligation to integrate with the host culture.

> However, what you seem to fail to grasp is that what you are seeing isn't actually the native culture of these people...

I fail to see the significance of this. I have my own doubts as to its accuracy. True or not, I still don't see the relevance. One possible way of interpreting your post would be that this is their attempt at assimilating into the host culture. If immigrant populations in large cities forming racial enclaves and ghettos that exclude the host culture is the best possible outcome, then why are we obliged to believe this multicultural experiment is a good thing?

FYI: I am an immigrant myself, having come to this country as a child.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by dang on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:53PM (#23967603)
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create HN accounts to do that with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by rewq4321 on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:42AM (#23964988)
> If immigrant populations in large cities forming racial enclaves and ghettos

This is a very... loaded way of talking about cultural precincts.

I've lived in the most multi-cultural city in Australia, and in one of the least, and I much prefer the diversity of the former. I love having a Chinatown that has legitimately maintained aspects of Chinese culture, and other Asian cultures, for example. The Chinatown in my previous city was essentially a cardboard prop in comparison.

In general, I think you may be confused. It seems that what you really care about is collective ethics and social contracts, and yet what you seem to be talking about is this vague idea of "assimilation". I find it hard to believe that you really want a perfectly homogeneous culture, but if you do, fair enough. I think most disagree with you - cities that have a bunch of legit cultural precincts are generally more interesting to me. I don't know how to say it exactly, but to me a monoculture city feels a little "boring" in comparison. This is, of course, just opinion.

If you happen to think that immigrants are statistically more associated with crime, then, in general, you're mistaken[0]. Foreign-born residents are generally underrepresented in prison populations, and studies I've read suggest that it takes around 3 generations for crime rates of immigrants to reach that of the native population.

[0] "Most studies in the U.S. have found lower crime rates among immigrants than among non-immigrants, and that higher concentrations of immigrants are associated with lower crime rates. For men between the ages of 18 and 39, the demographic with the highest propensity for crime, the incarceration rate for immigrants is one-fourth that of native-born Americans." Data with citations on more countries here --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by 082349872349872 on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:02AM (#23964646)
> Multiculturalism is fine at the scale of a football team.

Multiculturalism worked for the Austrian Hapsburgs from ~1520 - ~1920.

There was a time in the US when JFK was considered too insufficiently assimilated to elect, because irish catholics had lived in large immigrant enclaves.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by bryanlarsen on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:13AM (#23963423)
> I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture to a more than superficial degree.

Works great here in Canada. My neighbors are Lebanese, Iranian (although he calls himself Persian), Polish and Brazilian. All very Canadian, which is not a synonym for assimilated.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by numpad0 on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:11AM (#23963690)
I think your comment is downvoted because, to be blunt, it sounded like the author is an asshole, but for the content, it gives me a weird chuckle that racially segregated slavery/human importation is still the first suggestion to labor problems in an American forum like it’s 1920 or even 1820...
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by imtringued on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:19AM (#23963990)
I think it is very weird that you compare less restrictive immigration policies to slavery. Slavery takes away people's freedom. Less restrictive immigration policies grant people more freedom than they already had. People can decide for themselves if they want to immigrate.

It is also weird how you call it racially segregated when it is possible for white Americans to immigrate to India and obtain an Indian citizenship and then have trouble going back to the US.

The closest thing we have to slavery is civil wars where prisoners of war are being forced on overloaded boats that are heading toward Europe. These people probably suffer from the same pain that African American slaves have suffered from but they are not slaves, they are refugees and rejecting them will just result in more suffering, not less. You can call this human importation but it was not initiated by the receiving nations which were actually tightening their borders.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by perl4ever on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:31AM (#23963777)
This person claimed recently not to live in the US, so I wouldn't assume they are American.

I don't follow your comment about slavery, either. Where did they say it was a solution to labor problems or anything else?

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by regularfry on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:34AM (#23963538)
Having lived in London for a decade, I have to ask: what do you mean "assimilate"? Because I'd point to where I lived as "it working demonstrably well".
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by jacobush on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:30AM (#23963775)
And not even going into that the "core European" values just a few decades ago seemed to result in millions killed domestically and in the Colonies.
Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by Tade0 on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:16AM (#23964342)
We're in for an... immigrant shortage problem, however unbelievable that may sound.

China alone could absorb all that workforce and still have room for more given that their fertility rate has been below replacement for close to 30 years now.

Re:Dam built by robots? Japan's Obayashi tests it out by vidarh on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:24AM (#23964827)
Last I checked numbers I believe China's population is expected to start declining within something like the next ten years...

It will be very interesting to see how that affects both China and the world...