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Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Sunday July 26, 2020 @03:46AM (#23955235)
> where people connect with the spiritual world

In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup.

People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to provide tax exemptions to organizations that more and more people are fleeing.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:12AM (#23955352)
You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything.

USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by cosmodisk on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:31AM (#23955441)
>You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything

The concept was good and they did work. In many towns, it's usually the only place where you could run cultural evens,some more important community gatherings and so on. What did happen once the Soviet occupation ended, was the lack of funding of these places. The town I grew up in, 15k population and the culture center large enough to be suitable for a pretty large city,so the maintenance costs are substantial. That's where people go for theatre,concerts,and so on.

As for the churces, they do a lot of charitable work, however my own experience with churchgoers in many countries is that it's too often ' It's our way or no way at all'.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:37AM (#23955470)
Churches in USA are not nearly the same as in most other countries. They are funded bottom up and also have to survive by serving their community well. If you need to ask for some community center funded from some abstract government, you don't have the local community, at the first place.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by Nullabillity on Sunday July 26, 2020 @06:57AM (#23956111)
> from some abstract government

The.. local municipality funded by the same local community as your churches?

> Churches in USA are not nearly the same as in most other countries. They are funded bottom up and also have to survive by serving their community well.

Where do you think other churches get their funding? Where do you think municipalities get their funding?

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @07:06AM (#23956152)
Municipality is too top down for these purposes either and should not tell people how to entertain or take care of themselves. I don't want it to spend even a penny on that, ok? Enough to help emergency services and such - no one will want to opt out of that.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by cosmodisk on Sunday July 26, 2020 @07:41AM (#23956336)
I can't imagine your model working for any town/city except the very smallest ones or those inhabited by rich people only: to have an independent building,where the community could do whatever they think is right for them requires capital and some sort of management. So if it's a small village in the middle of nowhere, building something is probably realistic,but what about a few thousand people town? You'd need a piece of land, substantial amount to build it or even to rent it. And how a larger community would finance it? Joe may want to contribute but Mary won't and so on. Once you have the place,who runs it. Self elected local activist or elected person? How would they decide that events they plan to do fit well within the community, especially if it's more diverse? Whether it's national or local, the main problems around its use would remain the same.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @08:03AM (#23956457)
Churches already do that organically, no?
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by nucleardog on Sunday July 26, 2020 @05:48AM (#23955789)
In the city I grew up in in Canada, the nearby community centre was a relatively nice building on a big piece of land surrounded by a park and playgrounds. Not every one, but many had large halls and gymnasiums, some were collocated with schools, some with art galleries, etc. In the winter many distributed sand and salt, and they just generally acted as hub for anything the community required and anything the government needed to provide to the community. They also served a purpose as a shelter and support site in the event of a natural disaster.

As a child of a relatively poor family, I spent a fair bit of time there because the local government sent us a catalogue a couple times a year detailing all the programs they were running which due to our income level were more or less free (being a whopping $30 or something otherwise).

Based off this and your other comments, it seems a more visceral reaction to the phrasing “community centre” than that you have any real argument against them.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:55AM (#23955553)
Indeed, I have seen community centers in the US that do all that (perhaps with the exception of Hospitals).

I don't recommend going to your church when you need to go to a hospital. Go to a hospital. Doctors spend 12 years in school for a reason. The best outcome is that someone may do some first aid and call you an ambulance. The worst is you may die because you wasted time.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by iso947 on Sunday July 26, 2020 @05:26AM (#23955675)
You should see some American churches before thinking they are substitute for schools and hospitals.
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Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by non-entity on Sunday July 26, 2020 @05:34AM (#23955713)
Nowhere was communism ever mentioned, only the potential for a "community center" which is a rather generic term that can exist independent of communism.
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Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by watwut on Sunday July 26, 2020 @06:05AM (#23955872)
What are you talking about? Sounds either made up or completely twisted Russian history.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @06:38AM (#23956029)
If you compare to official textbooks from "both sides", yes, it sounds made up. It takes some time to find the history in witnesses' words. And.. things are largely unchanged until today in that region, easy to check.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by throwaway_pdp09 on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:20AM (#23955383)
> some Soviet community centers before

Could you elaborate?

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:24AM (#23955406)
I was born in the exUSSR and there, if you want to find the most apocalyptic, neglected, boring and useless building which lives by renting out itself to some strange businesses (if at all), you can ask for the local community center.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:51AM (#23955544)
Have you considered that you might just be jaded? Why should a 1980 USSR concrete building be your idea of the best that a "community center" can be, in the USA in 2020?

Doesn't your complaint have more to do with the USSR than it has to do with community centers?

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ikt on Sunday July 26, 2020 @07:36AM (#23956304)
Yeah this veered off into personal opinion real fast, I'm like we have thousands of Community hubs in Australia and they're great and only getting better.

For example: https://southperth.wa.gov.au/our-future/projects-and-places/...

I didn't even realise there was a connection to Russia until he brought it up.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by throwaway_pdp09 on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:30AM (#23955440)
I thought that would be the reply, but a community centre isn't a building but a function (that happens to need a building), but they're not the same.
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by juskrey on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:32AM (#23955451)
Exactly that. Community centers there are useless and only work as a cheap building for rent
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by drdeadringer on Sunday July 26, 2020 @05:11AM (#23955611)
> If people need community, build community centers.

Granted I've always been the last person to know where the party is and still don't know where to buy weed in a state where it's legal if it hit me in the face, but what I do know is that if I ever wanted to meet people the last two places I would go to is the local community center and church like it's 1971. In my experience, joining a hospice social club would be an equally bright experience.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by iateanapple on Sunday July 26, 2020 @07:47AM (#23956361)
> If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to provide tax exemptions to organizations

Community centres are an order of magnitude more expensive than providing tax breaks to churches.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Monday July 27, 2020 @01:20PM (#23967216)
I have to imagine that's because people spend 10% of their income on the churches that you aren't accounting for.

The people are paying one way or another, the question is whether public society will fill the gap or leave it to commercial businesses.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by iateanapple on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:59PM (#23968801)
> I have to imagine that's because people spend 10% of their income on the churches that you aren't accounting for.

That is one part. However, it is naive to assume people would pay the same for community services.

The other is most of the church work is at heavily discounted rates.

My hourly rate is $160/hr in my day job and I do about 10/hrs a week for my church at $20/hr.

Does your typical government worker ever do such heavily discounted work?

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by saltyfever on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:00AM (#23955295)
Are people fleeing churches or have they never been?
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:22AM (#23955395)
People are fleeing, in fact. An important thing to remember is that in these polls, when they say things like "No religion in particular" they don't actually mean that these people are Atheists. They mean they don't ascribe to a specific dogma, like Catholic, or Baptist. These people often may still think of themselves as "christian" but, for one reason or another, have rejected organized religion.

From 70% to 50% is such a large change in 20 years. For this to be caused by a change in _parenting only_ would mean that probably every child born 38 years ago until today never attended a church. (this data counts adults, so they would only start counting when they turned 18). That seems very unlikely.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-s...

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by lazyasciiart on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:21AM (#23955388)
Do you mean in generational terms, or individual life experiences?
Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by TheRealDunkirk on Sunday July 26, 2020 @08:14AM (#23956518)
Well, then just leave them untaxed, and let "the problem" take care of itself. My parents go to a typical < 100 member Protestant church, which is filled with nothing but gray hair, and they are the young ones. When the boomers are gone, I figure at least half of the churches in America will simply stop existing. I don't know what happens with all of that property.

(The problem is that the only way to keep the lights on in these churches is to appeal to people in their 60's and 70's, but programs geared for that age bracket will turn away people in their 20's and 30's, and deprive the church of new people, new perspective, and new funding. These kinds of churches are slowly starving to death, victims of simple attrition.)

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by dropit_sphere on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:18AM (#23955378)
> obsolete

>just over 50%

k

(I feel like the glib single-character response stands on its own, but more verbosely: yeah, the trend isn't good, but a) there's no reason to assume it's linear, "fair-weather believers" is a thing, and b) I'm not a TIOBE follower, but let's say java use was 70% 20 years ago, and down to just over 50% today. Is "obsolete" the word you'd use?)

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by ggggtez on Sunday July 26, 2020 @04:34AM (#23955456)
> this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion

Yes, I stand by my words. If you read them again, you'll see you are arguing with something I didn't say.

If 29% of religious people have left the church (50/70=71% still attend church)... then that is a major shift. It would be foolish to continue with previous assumptions about the role of churches going forward without taking into account how religious people are changing their behaviors.

Re:Montreal is taxing churches (2017) by notsureaboutpg on Sunday July 26, 2020 @07:15AM (#23956208)
Just wanted to point out this might not be true of other religions in the US. Yes they make up a smaller number, but I know for a fact that Muslims are religiously more participatory than they were 20 years ago in America. It could be sheer rising numbers, but I and many of my peers have also become more involved in our religious centers than we used to be.

So what if, in order to accommodate the changing role of the church in America, you prevent the other minority religions and minority communities from ever having their centers grow in the same way churches were able to?