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Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by seibelj on Monday July 20, 2020 @04:43PM (#23901688)
Thiel is interesting to me because he is so different than others in the SV bubble. Whether you agree with him or think he is the devil, at least he has independent views. I find a lot of people don’t think for themselves anymore.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by peacefulhat on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:12PM (#23901962)
I don't think he's that different beyond partisanship. Especially in the YC ecosystem with peers like Balaji Srinivasan. A lot of SV people want to "disrupt" basic foundations of our government like the education system.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by baxtr on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:59PM (#23902339)
I wonder how many people realize that disrupt literally means to break something.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by edanm on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @02:05AM (#23904653)
That's really not what people are talking about when they talk about disruption. Granted, most people don't really know the theories well, but the disruption thesis is an actual set of theories put forward by an actual business academic, which are concrete and measurable, to explain certain business processes.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by baddox on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:22PM (#23902057)
What strikes you as different about him? I can’t really articulate why exactly, but to me he’s right up there on the list of archetypical SV personalities.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by alicemaz on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:23PM (#23902500)
honestly I think that's an artifact of how often he is imitated. having read more than my share of seed fund about pages in the past few months, there is particular flavor you encounter over and over again that can only be described like "ah yes, I see you also have read zero to one." heavy emphasis on the transformative over the incremental, hard tech, disinterest in pedigree and traction given a shamanistic insistance that they are uniquely capable of identifying the visionaries of tomorrow, constant reminders they go against the grain and buck consensus, punchy copy talking about bold iconoclasts making the future of tomorrow yadda yadda

the three big aesthetic/intellectual strains of sv thought as I see them are truetype protagonist gleaming tech optimism a la early pmarca blog, folksy practicality a la pg, and dark horse contrarianism a la thiel. leonardo, donatello, raphael (turtles, not painters). but he did originate the kernel of it and can't really be faulted for the imitators

what actually makes him interesting tho is he's a disciple of rene girard, who argued among other things that the basis of socialization and social conflict is mimesis, which goes a long way to explaining his fixation on avoidance of imitation (and makes the raft of imitators that much funnier imo)

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by ZephyrBlu on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:54PM (#23902301)
He's not irrationally optimistic about the future.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by yks on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:15PM (#23902431)
A rather predictable position for a person owning a business that makes the future worse.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by Balgair on Monday July 20, 2020 @09:31PM (#23903581)
Well, the blood thing comes to mind.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by joshuamorton on Monday July 20, 2020 @04:46PM (#23901715)
People can achieve mainstream views through independent thought though.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by bezmenov on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:15PM (#23901996)
If all your views line up with the mainstream you’re most definitely not thinking for yourself though. Thiel in fact suggests a question framed in way to force people to think for themselves:

> What important truth do very few people agree with you on?

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by joshuamorton on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:28PM (#23902119)
> If all your views line up with the mainstream you’re most definitely not thinking for yourself though.

This doesn't make sense. You don't have to hold atypical views to think for yourself. Someone who thinks critically and for themselves and arrives at mainstream views is not wrong.

In fact, you'd expect that the majority of people who did so would arrive at mainstream views, unless you presuppose that mainstream views are wrong because they are mainstream. But that's a circular argument.

> What important truth do very few people agree with you on?

This doesn't force someone tho think for themselves. It forces someone to make a statement that they believe to be controversial. Nothing more. Thinking for yourself does not imply making controversial statements. Making controversial statements does not imply thinking for yourself.

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by jjoonathan on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:25PM (#23902520)
It's an entropic argument. Mainstream views are the result of many loose assumptions and lots of loose reasoning. Differences compound exponentially, so if you agree with mainstream thinking almost everywhere then either your inputs and thinking must extraordinarily well-defined in precise agreement with everyone else or, more likely, you are human and therefore susceptible to the same groupthink mechanisms as the rest of us.

I'm not fond of this argument because it's easy to formulate poorly and difficult to formulate well.

Instead, I favor a simpler appeal to history: from our point of view, any random person picked from history would be likely to have at at least one closely held belief that would be considered highly problematic by modern standards. What reason do we have to believe that we are somehow above this trend?

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by hihehohey on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:07PM (#23902386)
You can almost surely assert that the set of mainstream opinions contains at least one "wrong" opinion given the precedence of history. That is, of course, dependent on you believing that there are "wrong" opinions, which for some now has not been mainstream in some circles.
Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by bezmenov on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:18PM (#23902468)
If all of your beliefs line up into neat little bundles, you should be suspicious because they’re prepackaged and put together.

The vast majority of society have prescribed views, that is their views are derived from their group identity.

Why is this an issue? Groups search for consensus, individuals search for truth.

The question isn’t to tease out a controversial answer, rather to assert an individual is not a mindless ideologue.

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by cygx on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:27PM (#23902535)
Groups search for consensus, individuals search for truth.

It can get tiring to talk to yet another person that will explain to you how the theory of relativity is wrong when there's open house at the physics department, though...

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by marcosdumay on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:11PM (#23902412)
> You don't have to hold atypical views to think for yourself.

The causality goes the other way around. Most people really interested on not being different and will hold mainstream views without questioning. It's expected that not all those views are correct, and you won't make the same mistakes in an independent process.

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by joshuamorton on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:14PM (#23902426)
Thinking for your self does not imply a greater than average "holding" of atypical views. The people who came up with typical views thought for themselves, and people who synthesize their opinions based on similar information often reach similar conclusions.

> Most people really interested on not being different and will hold mainstream views without questioning.

Perhaps, but this doesn't imply the contrapositive, which was implied above (that holding mainstream views implies one does not think for themselves).

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by marcosdumay on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:46PM (#23902684)
> Thinking for your self does not imply a greater than average "holding" of atypical views.

Compared to making an effort to hold the typical views? How can it not imply that?

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by joshuamorton on Monday July 20, 2020 @06:58PM (#23902779)
> Compared to making an effort to hold the typical views? How can it not imply that?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can someone who thinks for themself arrive at "typical views"? If yes, then thinking for yourself does not imply anything about the views one holds.

To look at the other side: do you believe that a q-anon conspiracy theorist "thinks for themselves", or do they just buy into a non-mainstream, but still completely dogmatic, set of views?

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by bezmenov on Monday July 20, 2020 @07:31PM (#23902969)
> Can someone who thinks for themself arrive at "typical views"? If yes, then thinking for yourself does not imply anything about the views one holds.

Can someone flipping a non-biased coin 50 times have heads come up every flip? Yes. While theoretically possible, in reality it’s almost certainly a weighted coin.

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by joshuamorton on Monday July 20, 2020 @09:58PM (#23903704)
Of course it's a weighted coin! Mainstream ideas are usually (not always, but usually) more correct than a randomly chosen alternative.

Mainstream ideas are often weighted by such things as "scientific consensus", "observation", and "evidence". That doesn't make someone who holds many of them suspicious.

Again, not always, but usually, the mainstream ideas got to be mainstream by being better than all the ideas that came before. It's certainly somewhat conservative to hold only mainstream ideas, but on the whole I'd expect someone who only held mainstream ideas to be more correct than someone who only held non-mainstream ideas.

Like, are you going to sit here and tell me that most of your views aren't mainstream?

Re:Peter Thiel on Progress and Stagnation by czbond on Monday July 20, 2020 @05:10PM (#23901942)
I think it is his heavy introvert side, which focuses on reflection and strategy. (In the pseudo-personality type world, "INTJ"). Entrepreneurs are typically ENTP, or ESTP and are extroverted, jump out and figure it out types. They reflect a whole lot less - strategize less - and power through things more.