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Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by swiley on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:14AM (#23846350)
Geese, I’m surprised they were doing it to begin with! This sort of thing is why I won’t touch VScode and fsharp.

How do people building these things become convinced this is ok?

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Twirrim on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:20AM (#23846457)
popularity-contest comes from Debian. They introduced it quite a while ago as a way to help prioritise maintenance work etc.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by notRobot on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:27AM (#23846611)
I don't know about Ubuntu, but while installing Debian it makes it very clear what popularity-contest does and asks the user for explicit consent.

The default option is "I do not wish to participate", so if someone isn't paying attention during the install process and just hits 'Enter', their privacy remains intact.

This, IMO, is the perfect way to do telemetry.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by lewiscollard on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:41AM (#23846822)
On Ubuntu you still have to explicitly enable it - and unless I missed something in my last couple of Ubuntu installs you are never prompted to enable it during installation. If you want to opt in, you have to do a dpkg-reconfigure and even then the default is still "No".

This is not privacy-hostile in any meaningful way.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:22PM (#23847485)
Is the hubbub about popularity contest or about the Snap store?
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Shared404 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:02PM (#23850035)
It's about popcon, except for the people who didn't read the article.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Twirrim on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:18PM (#23847427)
The default in Ubuntu is to ask you at install time if you want it installed / enabled or not, for about as long as I remember, and I've been using Ubuntu for since ~5.04ish days.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Analemma_ on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:44AM (#23846878)
> How do people building these things become convinced this is ok?

Because they have the data proving that opt-in telemetry means no telemetry. Every time this topic comes up, HN sticks its fingers in its ears and refuses to accept this, but it's the truth. 99% of users, even for a developer-focused application like VSCode, just click through and accept the defaults. So if you want telemetry that isn't useless for any practical purposes, it has to be opt-out.

If you want, you can have a separate argument about whether having the telemetry is worth it, but if you've had that discussion and decided the answer is yes, then opt-out follows immediately from that.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by jkaplowitz on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:17PM (#23847395)
I've heard the same data as you. But I haven't heard data on what happens if you force people to make a choice about the telemetry upon install, without offering a default.

Like, instead of having a prechecked box that people would have to notice and uncheck before proceeding or a greyed out "maybe later" button, what about two different continue buttons labeled "yes, help us improve with anonymous statistics" or "no, I'd rather not contribute"? (Either way with a link available to more details in the privacy policy before deciding.)

My guess is that it would be less useful telemetry than opt-in, more useful than opt-out, and a slight obstacle to sign-ups for consumer webapps but not much of an obstacle to enterprise webapps or anything pre-downloaded.

Maybe it's still useful and smooth enough to be the right balance vs privacy?

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by GekkePrutser on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:50AM (#23846987)
Just because a supplier wants to have telemetry doesn't suddenly make it ethical to do opt-out (or even forced like MS does with Windows 10!).

If they care about their users and it's not possible to have worthwhile telemetry with opt-in, they simply can't have it.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Analemma_ on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:58AM (#23847100)
That's a strange definition of "can't". VSCode can and does, and it's the most popular editor in the world [0].

[0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e...

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:25PM (#23847512)
It's the same definition that says you "can't" steal your coworkers' lunch as they are eating it.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by on9wim5R on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:54AM (#23847044)
Indeed, I wouldn't try to find a case for "good telemetry", it basically means snooping, as far as I'm concerned.

And this is not even something that can't be replaced : if you want to know about your users habits, ask them. I would have no problem with seeing once in a while a broadcast message after syncing packages showing me an url of a poll. But automatic data collection is never ok.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Jonnax on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:51AM (#23846995)
Because they want to know what to continue developing or what to deprecate.

The reasoning is simple.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:21PM (#23847472)
The reasoning is simple.

The reality is complex.

Always, always think about second order effects.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by throwaway43234 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:35PM (#23847653)
What are the second order effects? What's this "complex reality" you're living in? VSCode gives you a log of every telemetry event it sends, none contain PII (if they do that'd be a serious issue and should be reported) and it provides a settings page to list and opt-out of every online service (including telemetry).
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:10PM (#23848196)
It's a loss of the trust of your users. It's ever harsher data protection laws. It's the vehement reaction you get when you say to someone, "your personal space is mine for the taking, and maybe I'll take a little less of it if you beg me to stop." It's the slippery slope of dark patterns to cajole and conceal and browbeat users into avoiding the opt-out. It's the camel that starts with its nose and then quickly removes you from your own tent. It's the grab first, apologize later modern world of capitalistic exploitation all in the name of gaming the quarterly numbers. It's the next paving stone on the road to your users crying out "We're mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore!"
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by throwaway43234 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:34PM (#23848612)
Lol... always amusing when someone asks HNers what changes they'd like to see and why, and they respond with crazy analogies that are totally unactionable... not the first time this has happened, won't be the last.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:47PM (#23850660)
As others have pointed out, change opt-out to opt-in. Don't send a single byte until opt-in is complete.

Change your frame of mind from "my software" to "your computer". If your users don't explicitly opt in, you have no right to take what they do not freely offer.

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by vaxman on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:43AM (#23846854)
Really? I thought it was common knowledge that UK are brutal about surveillance. James Bond and Kingsman, CCTV on every corner, Canonical CEO dismissing privacy concerns in new products “because you already trust us when we sign the packages” ...
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by rlpb on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:01PM (#23848054)
As far as I'm aware, it's always been opt-in on Ubuntu as it is on Debian.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by Multicomp on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:33PM (#23851312)
> and fsharp

Come again? Is there telemetry in the F# compiler I didn't know about? Or you mean that OOTB VSCode has telemetry, so you won't use it for your F# code, opting instead for a different text editor / IDE?

Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by swiley on Thursday July 16, 2020 @07:21AM (#23857796)
Nothing says there isn’t. I was shocked when I heard vscode had telemetry even though it was open source and now I’m not sure I want to use any other open source stuff that comes from that company. Especially a compiler.
Re:Ubuntu Will No Longer Track Which Packages Users Install by bansheehash on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:34AM (#23846719)
Try VSCodium, which is VSCode without MS telemetry: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium