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Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by dclusin on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:25PM (#23814473)
I think that there should be regulation requiring a minimum level of compensation that includes the drivers time and vehicle depreciation as a result of mileage. Drivers generally lack the sophistication to do financial modelling for depreciation of their vehicles. Large corporations like target know this and shamelessly take advantage of it to the benefit of their own shareholders. Just because someone is willing to let themselves be exploited doesn't make it okay. It's pretty despicable IMO.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by pathseeker on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:19PM (#23814847)
>Drivers generally lack the sophistication to do financial modelling for depreciation of their vehicles.

Those poor dim-witted drivers. Seriously though, it only take a couple of seconds of Googling to calculate the depreciation of a vehicle. "Financial modelling" is a pretty grandiose word for "subtract $0.50 for every mile you drive".

Don't assume everyone who takes a lower-paying job is stupid.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jlbnjmn on Sunday July 12, 2020 @09:20PM (#23816218)
I would have agreed with you before, but then I worked at a car dealership for two years. A lot of people can't calculate a monthly payment. I was surprised at the time, but since then I've learned to be a lot more understanding.

And that doesn't make them stupid or dim witted.

Math is a skill, just like kindness or empathy.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jjeaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @11:18PM (#23816818)
Also, what a lot of arm-chair-from-the ivory-tower-quarterbacks don't understand is that most people that don't buy brand new vehicles or even certified pre-owned vehicles is that depreciation isn't really that critical.

Because if you are using your already well used car or a newly purchased well used car, the vast majority of the depreciation has already happened. The main reason you keep it is for tax reasons, not to calculate profit.

My 10 year old car is in great shape but has 175k miles on it. It would work fine to drive for Uber with. The resale value is $3500 at best. Putting another $100k driving for Uber would not affect that resale value very much and even if it did, it can only go to zero.

And no, maintenance doesn't become significantly more expensive on a higher mileage car. In fact, as a 10 year old vehicle, it is significantly less difficult and expensive to have it repaired and the replacement parts are significantly less expensive as well due to the availability of aftermarket and salvage options.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by lotsofpulp on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:37PM (#23814555)
I think drivers know wear and tear and fuel and insurance costs $0.50+ per mile.

They just don’t have an option for better pay:quality of life at work ratio. Which generally applies to the work of 95% of the people in the world, they simply don’t have a better option.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by ghaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:58PM (#23814704)
A lot of people seem to equate people without great financial options with "stupid." I'm sure a lot of gig economy workers are pretty aware they're borrowing from their future selves or at least they're choosing just not to think about it.

I'm sure some don't understand the real costs. But most are doing what they think they need to do in the here and now and, to be honest, if people are really trying to minimize car costs, they're probably at least a bit less than IRS allowances.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jjeaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @11:20PM (#23816830)
Many if not most just see Uber driving as a stop gap. So they are basically just trading equity in the vehicle they already have for money to get by right now and they know it.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by macspoofing on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:43PM (#23814587)
>They just don’t have an option for better pay:quality of life at work ratio.

In some sense that's a tautology. Everything that anybody is doing is because they've made the decision that that is the best thing for them at that time given their current circumstances. Outside of that I wouldn't label it this way. Driving Uber is not the only option in America.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jjeaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @11:24PM (#23816853)
For many people though, it may be one of the few options that pays as well (even after depreciation) and has the flexibility that many people that are juggling multiple jobs and children.

Because remember that most jobs require you to show up daily at your own expense during off-the-clock time causing vehicle depreciation all the same.

And that is a difficult reality.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by whiddershins on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:40PM (#23814569)
By definition, most people work at the job that they determine to be their best option.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by iampims on Sunday July 12, 2020 @06:11PM (#23815188)
Asymmetry of information is seriously at play here. It’s hard to believe that with access to better/timely information, many workers wouldn’t be able to find a better opportunity than their current gig.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by treis on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:07PM (#23814770)
>I think drivers know wear and tear and fuel and insurance costs $0.50+ per mile.

It doesn't cost that. That number is what the IRS accepts for deducting mileage expenses. That doesn't mean that's what it costs everyone. An older model and fuel efficient car will be less than half that on a per mile basis.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by lotsofpulp on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:15PM (#23814826)
Assuming a car is required, the cost of replacing the car needs to be included in wear and tear.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by treis on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:53PM (#23815082)
Yes, that's included. You can get cars with 80-100k miles that will make it to 200k for ~$5,000 on Craigslist. That's about 5 cents a mile.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by dclusin on Sunday July 12, 2020 @06:17PM (#23815226)
Uber places requirements on car make and mode year. You can’t get a 10 year old beater and drive for Uber.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by treis on Sunday July 12, 2020 @06:30PM (#23815310)
Thats only certain cities and doesn't change the calculation much. You need to spend 7-8k for something ~7 years old. Your cost per mile doesn't go up much because they have fewer miles.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jjeaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @11:26PM (#23816861)
You can, actually. Well, not a beater, but if it's in good condition, in Los Angeles the requirement is 15 years old or newer.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jessaustin on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:51PM (#23814647)
Minimum wage limits "options". If we assume that minimum wage makes sense, then a higher minimum wage for people using their personal automobiles also seems to make sense.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by macspoofing on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:28PM (#23814490)
>I think that there should be regulation requiring a minimum level of compensation that includes the drivers time and vehicle depreciation as a result of mileage.

That's not going to fix it. If you artificially raise the compensation rates, you're going to increase supply (i.e. incentivize more people to be Uber drivers), leading to more downtime for Uber drivers because the supply of drivers outstrips demand for them. So the per-hour salary isn't going to go up for the drivers. Uber would have to limit supply or create some sort of tiered system - but those aren't perfect solutions either.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by cameronbrown on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:41PM (#23814574)
Yup. There's simply not enough money consumers are willing to pay anymore. VCs spent untold Billions distorting the worldwide taxi market.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by jjeaff on Sunday July 12, 2020 @11:29PM (#23816883)
I wonder if the bigger distortion is actually the rental market. At least in the US, taxis are pretty rare anywhere outside of NYC and a few other metro areas.

I know for me, pre-uber I probably rode in taxis once a year. I would usually have rented a car at the airport in most cases.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by dcow on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:14PM (#23814817)
Untold? I'm pretty sure we know how much money Uber and Lyft have taken (and Sidecar and Flywheel, etc.)
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by cameronbrown on Monday July 13, 2020 @04:46AM (#23818591)
Turn of phrase.
Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by dclusin on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:42PM (#23814585)
Companies aren't required to employ people. More people want to work for Google than Google current needs to hire.

The inability of drivers to calculate depreciation prevents them from being able to assess whether or not the contract they're agreeing to is fair. If they actually knew how little they were being paid after depreciation they would probably sit at home and try to find a better job.

This is a market inefficiency in that the actual cost of delivery is not properly reflected in the primary market (between Target & customer) price and instead offloaded on another party. The delivery costs are being artificially lowered by Target taking advantage of workers with low financial acumen. If the cost of delivery as paid by Target to their delivery drivers was closer to the cost + wages it would most likely result in higher prices paid by the consumer. This would end up as less people using the service and getting off the couch and into Target. Or they wouldn't buy stuff.

If a product or service is only sustainable by exploiting people's ignorance and paying them below minimum wage then I don't think that product or service should exist.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by macspoofing on Sunday July 12, 2020 @04:56PM (#23814688)
>More people want to work for Google than Google current needs to hire.

That's just a factually wrong statement. But it also don't apply here. Google restricts the number of people it hires, Uber/Target do not restrict the number of people that register to drive for them ... yet.

>The delivery costs are being artificially lowered by Target taking advantage of workers with low financial acumen.

Yes. I agree with that, but fixing this is harder than you think. Let's say Target (or Government) decides to raise the rates from, equivalent of $10/hr to $15/hr, to properly account for delivery costs (and let's assume this has no impact on demand, which it will to the detriment of the drivers). At that point, you're going to attract the delivery drivers who weren't willing to drive for $10/hr but are willing to drive for $11/hr or $12/hr or..etc. Meanwhile demand hasn't changed, which means there is less work for individual drivers, and their wages do not go up, or go up much less than you would expect.

The only way to mitigate this is for Uber/Target to become a gatekeeper, and control the supply of drivers. This means that this gig-economy business goes out the door. Not everybody would be able to just start driving for Uber.

Re:Target’s gig workers will strike to protest switch to alg... by pmoriarty on Sunday July 12, 2020 @05:10PM (#23814793)
"At that point, you're going to attract the delivery drivers who weren't willing to drive for $10/hr but are willing to drive for $11/hr or $12/hr or..etc."

But are there enough people who are willing to drive for $11/hr but not for $10/hr to balance out the ones already driving for $10/hr?

We don't know.

It's possible that all or most of those willing to be delivery drivers for $15/hr are already driving for $10/hr, and raising the wage to $15/hr won't have an appreciable impact on the supply of drivers.