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Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by hhernandez on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:18PM (#23794570)
What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourage further racial division and entrenchment.

Preventing racial discrimination (a good thing) should not lead into encouraging racial division, but unfortunately our well meaning desire to be equitable often causes that to happen.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by S33V on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:28PM (#23794682)
I'd concur, a colorblind approach would have detrimental effects to indigenous people. Colorblindness leads to ignorance and turns a blind eye to the past when working for a fair future. There's a great journal article on this exact subject:

Fryberg, S. A., & Stephens, N. M. (2010). When the world is colorblind, American Indians are invisible. Psychological Inquiry, 21, 115-119. doi: 10.1080/1047840X.2010.483847

PDF: https://www.nicolemstephens.com/uploads/3/9/5/9/39596235/34_...

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:24PM (#23794625)
> What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourage further racial division and entrenchment.

Of course that's definitely not the only way forward. You can fix unequal distributions of resources by, well, redistributing the resources, which requires acknowledging the existence of different groups and the history of how those groups have distributed resources among themselves. And note that acknowledging the existence of a social construct that distinguishes people into different groups does not imply condoning that social construct.

It's not that radical. If a thief steals my car, the way forward is to recognize who is the thief and who is the victim, and to redistribute the resources accordingly. That does not "simply encourage further division and entrenchment between thieves and victims of theft," or if it does, I think that's okay. We don't say "hey, I'm blind to the differences between thieves and victims, we're all just human beings."

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by rukittenme on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:06PM (#23795083)
The problem isn't remediation for an injustice. The problem is the overt and explicitly racial language and philosophy behind your arguments for remediation. The problem is the inability to remediate history. There is no such thing as cosmic justice.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:17PM (#23795210)
Are you saying that, unlike other injustices where we as a society generally approve of at least attempting to correct the injustice, this particular injustice is unique, and we shouldn't even attempt to remediate? Or do you oppose all attempts to correct past injustices because "cosmic justice" doesn't exist? I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans.

Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy, any more than my argument for returning stolen property relies on "'thief'-like language or philosophy." My argument for remediation is simply that the injustice occurred, and I think our society should attempt to correct this past injustice just like other past injustices.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by rukittenme on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:26PM (#23795330)
> Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy.

It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. The matter of who did what to whom is "settled" in the sense that all parties are dead.

> I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans.

What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by refurb on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:56PM (#23799071)
What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?

I am by no means an expert, but I think the recent SC case is probably the right approach. I don't see why the US government should not be held to the treaties they signed - I mean, the court still relies on law settled centuries ago.

And if the gov't can't hold up their end, then restitution is reasonable. However, I wouldn't restitute based on today's value just because the tribal land is Manhattan now. But it would seem fair to make them whole based on if the treaty had been fairly followed.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:32PM (#23795403)
> It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from.

I did not say or imply this.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by rukittenme on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:35PM (#23795443)
The question remains. How do you solve the problem of historical injustice? Focusing specifically on land stolen from Native Americans by European settlers.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by krapp on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:57PM (#23795692)
There probably isn't an easy, simple or universally acceptable answer.

But... the US taking its treaty obligations with native peoples as seriously as it does with other nations would be a good start.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by rukittenme on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:20PM (#23795975)
As I said yesterday in our conversation, we are in agreement there but I'm not quite sure it solves the problem. A "good start" isn't a solution to the problem and even the "good start" requires enforcing some form of racial governance model otherwise its just another county of the United States.

The situation is at the very least complex and will likely require a "morally impure" solution.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by krapp on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:27PM (#23796701)
It wouldn't solve the problem, but it would solve a problem. And the USG refusing to act in good faith is a pretty big problem. Any mutually beneficial solutions would be at best infeasible or at worse impossible without at least that.

Yes, it would be messy and complex. International relations already are, why would intranational relations be different?

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by hhernandez on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:13PM (#23797182)
Historical injustice is not something that people living today are responsible for. Therefore the "problem" of historical injustice is best solved by people today forgiving the people from the past and moving on with their lives.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:05PM (#23795797)
I don't have the experience to suggest specifics, but I think more government aid programs targeted to Native American communities is a good start. I don't pretend that there's some way of perfectly undoing the land distribution, but I also don't claim that there is absolutely nothing that can or should be done.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by rukittenme on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:24PM (#23796015)
If you want to provide government aid to poor communities then by all means do it. But let's not pretend that welfare even approximates a solution to the problem. There is likely no solution.

Well... aside from letting go of past injustices and instead focusing on some better future. Which isn't really a solution at all since it relies on the permanent good will of all future generations.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:03PM (#23796424)
There is almost certainly no perfect solution. I think everyone is in agreement there. "If you want to provide government aid to poor communities then by all means do it" is major progress over complete resignedness.

> Well... aside from letting go of past injustices and instead focusing on some better future.

This is a false dichotomy. I'm not suggesting attempting to change the past, of course. I am proposing we try to improve things in the future and allow ourselves to be informed by the past.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by throwanem on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:35PM (#23794755)
The concept of a colorblind approach ignores the existence of historical context. One might as well take a disability-blind approach to whether buildings need wheelchair ramps.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by hhernandez on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:07PM (#23795100)
People today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Your parents' individual personalities and ability to raise you does matter, but broader historical context matters very little, unless we try to make it so and that generally just causes conflict.

People in wheelchairs are on the other hand affected by the presence or absence of wheelchair ramps.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by minerjoe on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:43PM (#23795542)
Dude, go visit the Pine Ridge Reservation and then come back here and say "prople today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come.

Or the Standing Rock reservation, or ...

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by throwanem on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:05PM (#23795790)
Or your local BLM protest. The Brookings Institution has a good survey of the relevant history, here: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining...
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by hhernandez on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:17PM (#23797229)
Why does that article not address the most dominant cause of the wealth gap, which is broken homes and blacks dropping out of school, not going to college etc?

That's an issue of personal choices more than anything else.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by hhernandez on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:15PM (#23797205)
The reservations themselves are responsible for the deplorable state of the people living on them.

If the Natives had integrated a few generations ago they would be far better off today.

Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by minerjoe on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:34PM (#23797366)
Dude, I'm sorry for you.
Re:Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America by thex10 on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:07PM (#23797654)
> Your parents' individual personalities and ability to raise you does matter, but broader historical context matters very little

Broader historical context plays part in what defines your parents' personalities and ability to raise children in the first place. You're trying so very hard to abstract it away in order to solve this problem but many of us know this won't work.