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Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by tfandango on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:26PM (#23761609)
Just looking through my home town for businesses I know about... A fair number of them I know carried on with business as usual and had no financial problems (one I used to work for). Seems wrong when there are lots of people in the same town lining up outside the unemployment office every day...
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:29PM (#23761644)
Because the goal wasn’t to help the people most affected. It was to maintain the socioeconomic order so that people would be incentivized to continue doing menial work for low wages.

If you give people at the bottom a choice to not work, by giving them cash directly, then they would have better negotiating power versus employers.

The employers would then have to raise wages, and therefore prices. That means consumers who were proportionally consuming more than others have to consume less as more of the wealth goes towards paying higher wages. And we don’t want that as a society.

So we make the aid contingent upon an employer who might bless you with a furlough so you can collect the temporary generous unemployment, but also yank it away in case your menial work is necessary and they can go back to paying you near minimum living wages.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by digitaltrees on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @03:29PM (#23763074)
I don’t think you can make this argument when at the same time the government was paying an extra $600 per week on top of regular pay for unemployment.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @03:56PM (#23763319)
That’s only if your employer has laid you off. If they continued your employment or called you back to work for $12/hour, you aren’t eligible for unemployment anymore. And if you refuse to go back to work, then you are also not eligible for unemployment benefits.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by digitaltrees on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @04:15PM (#23763479)
Many managers like their employees and don’t want to stiff them like that.

My point was the argument that the government design PPP as an effort to perpetuate an existing system that reduces employees bargaining power and prefers businesses can’t be supported when the government specifically strengthen employees bargaining power.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @04:47PM (#23763862)
I contend it didn’t strengthen the employees’ bargaining power, for the reasons I stated above. Unconditional cash would have.

The powers that be know that loans obligations have been made that can only be satisfied if labor costs remain contained. Their primary objective is to make sure the mortgages keep getting paid, and paying employees double would endanger that.

An easy illustration is the fact that “essential” employees at much higher risk of getting the virus are getting paid with their old near minimum wage per hour jobs with signs that say “heroes work here”, and their management bosses are working safely at home with minimal risk of covid earning the same pay.

White collar employees continue to earn higher salaries from the safety of their home, and “hero” janitors and housekeepers are getting the same $10 to $15 they received as before, except they get to deal with higher chances of coronavirus.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by digitaltrees on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @05:23PM (#23764261)
There are no “powers that be” if you don’t like the system then change it. Start a company, pay people higher wages, build a competitive advantage. Or run for office. If you think there is some coordinated effort to oppress then build a counter effort.

I suspect what you would find is not some grand conspiracy but emergent properties from competitive forces.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by lotsofpulp on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @05:40PM (#23764410)
I know there isn’t a grand conspiracy. It’s just a consequence of capital owners also being the decision makers. Why would the capital owners make a decision to reduce their power?

And a lone businessman can’t just pay workers more and make the world right. If I decide to pay people more, and run the numbers and figure out I can afford to spend $5M on a piece of land to develop, and my competitor decides to project paying people much less, they can afford to spend $6M for the same piece of land. So guess which business ends up existing? The one that doesn’t pay higher wages. Same situation with people choosing to shop at stores that offer lower prices.

It would have to be a nationwide effort to transfer wealth, such as UBI or higher minimum wages. Otherwise we keep going as is with an ever widening wealth/income gap.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by jacobsenscott on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @04:48PM (#23763866)
You wouldn't know if companies you don't work for are having financial problems. Most of the time you don't know even when working there until it all crashes down.

These loans don't cause unemployment. Those same people would be unemployed even if those same businesses didn't apply for the loan.

We are only a few months into a multi year pandemic, so even if a company isn't suffering yet, they most likely will be soon. Getting a loan while it is available to preserve jobs as long as possible as the pandemic gets worse sounds like a sensible and ethical thing to do.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by tfandango on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @05:38PM (#23764395)
This is a good point I had not thought of, and I appreciate you saying it without any extra snark! The reason that company stood out was that I know half the people that work there and they have told me that things are going well (they are in the online learning business). But as you said perhaps they don't know, and even if not it would be wise to inoculate your company from unknown impacts later if you have the opportunity... thx.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by vmception on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:43PM (#23762601)
What is that supposed to mean?

I would never announce a financial problem or ever publicly announce employees let go. It would harm my contracts with vendors.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by havelhovel on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:43PM (#23762592)
Maybe the loans helped those businesses carry on despite drops in revenue, as intended. In that case, the unemployment line is shorter than it might have been. Neither of us know without seeing financials, but it’s important to acknowledge both possibilities.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by cj on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:31PM (#23761688)
Not sure why this comment is being downvoted.

I just searched my local city and noticed that our (for profit) ambulance service received a loan:

> DIAZ MEMORIAL AMBULANCE SERVICE INC

I definitely don't think they saw the number of ambulance rides go down. And also don't think their profits suffered.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by alasdair_ on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:45PM (#23761897)
>I definitely don't think they saw the number of ambulance rides go down.

I'm friends with an ER nurse and she was saying that the ER was almost completely empty during the first few weeks of COVID-19 because everyone was staying home out of fear.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by reaperducer on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:35PM (#23762497)
Not sure why this comment is being downvoted

Probably because there's no way he could possibly know what "business as usual" was for any company where he wasn't employed. He has no idea what each company's financial situation is and is merely spouting cynicism.

I definitely don't think they saw the number of ambulance rides go down.

Is this something you monitor? Is there even a way to do that with a private ambulance company?

Considering the number of medical providers, doctors' offices, and hospitals that had business plummet to catastrophic levels, I think you're imagining things.

I work in healthcare, and just off the top of my head can think of several medical clinics and pharmacies that shut down because of pandemic-induced financial difficulties.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by FireBeyond on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:31PM (#23762459)
You'd absolutely be wrong. Most ambulance services saw a massive downtick.

People who would otherwise have gone to the ER, even if not strictly necessary, were hesitating, "do I really need to go, perhaps not".

And then on the other side, you had people who really _should_ go not wanting to, due to fear.

Both ambulance services in my county were shutting down ambulances and furloughing employees heavily.

-- a paramedic

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by eli on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:35PM (#23761769)
With all elective surgeries cancelled? I dunno but I’d be careful making assumptions.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by troebr on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:41PM (#23761830)
I agree with not making assumptions. However I don't think you'd take an ambulance for an elective surgery since it's not an emergency.
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by reaperducer on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:38PM (#23762531)
Ambulances aren't only used for emergencies. They're used to transport people who can't otherwise get around, or who need medical equipment with them, or who are recovering from surgery, or to move patients from hospital to hospital, and a hundred other uses.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that emergencies are a small portion of what ambulances are used for, but I don't have access to that data.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by digitaltrees on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @03:33PM (#23763107)
Actually they did go down. Lots of evidence that people were not going to the hospital out of fear of Covid exposure

But let’s assume your premise; it’s likely their costs went up dramatically between Personal protective equipment, hazard pay, quarantine procedures for exposed employees etc.

Ambulance services are capital intensive (ie large Debt payments) and low margin. A 20% drop in revenue would bankrupt the company.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by derision on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:38PM (#23761796)
There's been a number of articles floating around about people avoiding hospitals / emergency rooms for non-COVID related reasons because of concerns about COVID, and that people were suffering (and sometimes dying) at home rather than going to the hospital like they normally would. I'm sure a good portion of those include times when an ambulance would have been called
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by marcinzm on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:18PM (#23762301)
>I definitely don't think they saw the number of ambulance rides go down.

Covid hasn't been prevalent enough to increase ER visits in most of the country (until now) and other people have been avoiding going to the ER unless on deaths door. Not to mention the lack of driving has probably plummeted car accident rates. I remember reading that organ donors are in short supply.

Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by throwaway0xb on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @03:18PM (#23762976)
Visits (business) were down significantly for ERs. People just weren't coming in with the silly stuff they did pre-covid. Now you might say that's a good thing overall but that doesn't pay the bills...
Re:Searchable PPP Loan Data by icedchai on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @07:04PM (#23765233)
Business activity and profits don't matter here. You don't have to prove you actually need the money to receive a loan.