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Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ryanSrich on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:13PM (#23750027)
Imagine paying the fee for a Harvard MBA and missing out on arguably the most valuable aspect of it - nepotism and networking.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by screye on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:49PM (#23750583)
I find it completely absurd that so many people are happy about remote classrooms.

Online videos and assignments at most top universities have been available for free for years now. Universities are entirely about the advantage of learning in person, peer groups and signalling.

If the value of university when remote remains the same for your major/university, then it is a scathing indictment of the in-classroom experience the major/university offered.

If I found myself in such a situation, the first thing I would do is un-enroll and reflect on the stupid financial decisions I've made.

I hope this is a wake up call for middling private universities and non-lucrative majors that can be easily made remote. A $100k+ fee for something that can be accessed online for free without any real loss in value is highway robbery.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by vkou on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:19PM (#23751658)
> Online videos and assignments at most top universities have been available for free for years now. Universities are entirely about the advantage of learning in person, peer groups and signalling.

If anyone seriously doubts this, consider that pretty much any young person in America can just walk into a university lecture hall, and sit through all the classes they could ever wish for, without paying a cent. [1] Nobody takes attendance, and if you look like a student, nobody's going to notice that you're not actually enrolled in the class.

And yet, nobody actually does this! Instead, millions of people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition, so that their attendance will be officially recorded.

Those people aren't stupid. They aren't paying for the education, they are paying for everything besides the education.

[1] Okay, it may cost you a few hundred dollars per year to buy second-hand, old-edition books, if you can't be arsed to study at the university library. This is much less of a financial hurdle than having the luxury to devote 20-40 hours/week on attending classes, and doing classwork.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by hansvm on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:01PM (#23752092)
> Universities are entirely about the advantage of learning in person, peer groups and signalling.

As long as "learning in person" includes one-on-one time with your professors and access to a university library I agree with you 100%.

> without paying a cent

It's pretty easy to get into hot water with the university if you have any legal ties to them (e.g. by having been a student). It's common to require some fraction of ordinary tuition to sit in on classes.

> Nobody takes attendance, and if you look like a student, nobody's going to notice that you're not actually enrolled in the class.

Enough people do take attendance, or at least take a look at the roster ahead of time (in smaller classes). I had a better success rate speaking with the professor ahead of time and asking if they minded. It's also worth mentioning that not all professors are willing to put in extra one-on-one time with an unofficial student.

> nobody actually does this

Admittedly the slip of paper at the end was important to me, but I saved a little money taking some of the classes I wanted unofficially, and I wasn't the only person in my university peer group to do so. It was also a nice way to sidestep some bureaucratic prerequisite issues for classes outside my major.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by vkou on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:29PM (#23752381)
Many university libraries don't check ID at the door, and many paying students don't take advantage of 1:1 professor or TA office hours.

Yes, this sort of thing is discouraged - but my point is that anyone who wanted to learn what is being taught in CALC 405, or what-have-you can currently do so, under the table, for essentially free.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by hansvm on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:46PM (#23753166)
I totally agree that anyone who wants to learn the contents of most courses can do so for free, including the 1:1 interactions, networking, and library access (many universities not only don't check ID but actively encourage the broader community to visit and research).

My argument was a mild push-back, pointing out that it's more difficult in some respects (e.g., you might not have access to some of your preferred professors), and that it _does_ actually happen occasionally.

Do you have any insight into why more people don't take advantage of that opportunity? Anecdotally, before I attended university I didn't value a college education beyond the slip of paper at the end, and even if I had wanted just the education without the degree I wouldn't have known that I could just sit in on my classes.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by vkou on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:41PM (#23753622)
> Do you have any insight into why more people don't take advantage of that opportunity?

Because they correctly value the learning to be worth ~$X,000, but the accreditation to be worth ~$YZ,000.

When you put things that way, the 20-40 hours/week of time that goes into getting an education becomes a lot less of a good investment, if the only payoff is that you get to learn.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by danaliv on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:13PM (#23754260)
This is called “auditing” and you don’t even have to sneak in to do it. You just ask.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_audit

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by vkou on Monday July 06, 2020 @09:09PM (#23754577)
If you ask, it costs money. In many cases, as much money as just being an enrolled student, and taking the course.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ativzzz on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:52PM (#23752615)
I would say any class that's big enough to where you just blend into the crowd, meaning just a lecture class, is pretty much useless to attend and the same content can be found for free online and with the textbook.

The academic value of college comes from small class discussion (you don't get this in large lectures), direct 1:1 access to professors/TAs, and the ability to work together with other students. If you don't get these, then there's no benefit of attending a lecture in person.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by perl4ever on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:11PM (#23754252)
>Nobody takes attendance, and if you look like a student,

>nobody's going to notice that you're not actually

>enrolled in the class.

>And yet, nobody actually does this!

...if they don't take attendance, how do you know nobody does this?

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by mberning on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:33PM (#23751815)
I think people selfishly like many aspects of the covid lockdown. But they may regret it later. I know many school teachers that have enjoyed a very light workload this spring and are rooting for something similar in the fall. It may go on for a while, but at some point administrators and tax payers will realize there is no reason to pay for so many teacher salaries. It’s going to be rough.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by albntomat0 on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:01PM (#23751463)
There is some amount of capture of returning students. Due to the difficulties of transferring, it may be easier and collectively cheaper for a senior to return for their final year.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by andygcook on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:42PM (#23750485)
I'm friends with quite a few Harvard MBAs now (think what you will, but the ones I know are all great people :) because my partner is a Harvard MBA. Without a doubt, they all said they'd take a gap year if they were in the current situation. Half the value is the credentialing, but the other half is the experience and network you build through it.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by shuckles on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:14PM (#23750900)
Unfortunately, Harvard's offer to admitted MBAs was to defer til 2021 or 2022, but the specific year would be up to Harvard. That's not uncertainty that many people with families and advanced careers can or should plan around. People in their mid-20s should definitely defer regardless.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ryanwaggoner on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:37PM (#23751167)
Almost 90% of admitted HSB students are under 30.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by bartread on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:05PM (#23750789)
It's not just Harvard. I feel bad for anybody who was due to go to pretty much any university this year because they're going to miss out on so much of the experience.

If it were me I'd be looking to defer and reapply later, but then I went to the University of Nottingham and, if they'd chosen not to accept me when I reapplied, I'd probably have been just as happy in Bristol or London. If you're due to attend a high prestige institution like Harvard or Cambridge, where demand far outstrips supply, it becomes a much more difficult decision. Attending those schools is an end in itself and if your heart is set on that end you might feel you're risking a little too much by deferring.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by 015UUZn8aEvW on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:27PM (#23750236)
It's even more than that. The classroom experience is absolutely central to the program.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by Anon4Now on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:37PM (#23753583)
Nepotism means showing favoritism towards family members, e.g., a nephew hired or promoted instead of a more qualified person.

Sorry to nitpick. I just see that word misused a lot online. I doubt that you're implying that a person would be effectively disowned by family members for taking a semester of their Harvard MBA program online instead of on site.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by centimeter on Monday July 06, 2020 @07:29PM (#23753957)
Nepotism also refers to preferential treatment of friends and loosely defined "family" members (e.g. members of your tribal group), and universities like Harvard are certainly involved in laundering that kind of behavior.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ss2003 on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:38PM (#23750418)
That can be done online too.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by pphysch on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:50PM (#23750607)
A lot of the aforementioned things happen spontaneously and not within the confines of a scheduled 1-hour seated meetings.

Has Harvard even announced that they are using more "mingly" online conferencing tools?

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by aardvark1 on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:29PM (#23751083)
This decision does not apply to HBS though
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by hartator on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:18PM (#23750096)
This. You can also learn everything taught there and better by just buying and reading the books.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by falcor84 on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:26PM (#23750222)
Beyond nepotism, there's a lot of actual learning experiences you can gain from your peers by debating them in case study lessons, working with them on projects and participating in simulations etc.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ideals on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:00PM (#23750721)
Could you gain the same experience by finding people like that in an online community and debating case studies among them?

Doesn't that happen in an informal way on a lot of subreddits and even here?

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by otoburb on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:08PM (#23750828)
I think determined individuals could, but it's much harder without ready access to pre-designed course material (e.g. case studies) and a learned facilitator, ideally one who has a mix of hard won industry experience, academic/research rigour and is a great teacher to boot.

This doesn't come close to describing every single professor, but I imagine (albeit without any sources to back this up right now) that the ratio of such unicorn professors is higher at Tier 1 univerities vs. non-Tier 1.

Perhaps with a larger supply of determined students willing to tackle this on their own, this is the year where a larger number of focused case-study groups could be formed and sustained online.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by 015UUZn8aEvW on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:13PM (#23750896)
I didn't get an MBA from HBS, but I did cross-register into a class there while getting a different degree. The classroom experience there is sui generis, and it definitely couldn't be translated into an online format without diminishing its value. It's not just a matter of transmitting and absorbing information. If I were an incoming MBA student, I'd defer a year rather than going online.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by ilikehurdles on Monday July 06, 2020 @02:36PM (#23751160)
Online communities self-select and self-censor. A student with a contrary, incorrect, or controversial viewpoint in a classroom has a voice and can spark discussion given they operate with best intentions and have a decent instructor. They can be wrong one day, come in the next day and continue to speak. Such a user in an online community gets downvoted, muted, banned, ignored, hidden, or any of those things that keep the chamber full of its own echoes.

In theory these communities can exist online. In reality, the vast majority of online communities are not open to being a classroom setting.

Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by wegs on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:50PM (#23750600)
Plenty of other schools in the area offer better, more rigorous instruction. If that were central to the value offering, no one would go to HBS.
Re:Decision for 2020-21 Academic Year by tengbretson on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:33PM (#23750341)
> And two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin’ education you coulda got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the Public Library.

> Yah think yah so smaht? How do you like them apples?