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Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by justapassenger on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:21AM (#23724767)
> Apple engineers also said last week the company will bolster a free Apple-made tool that uses anonymous, aggregated data to measure whether advertising campaigns are working and that will not trigger the pop-up. > “Because it’s engineered to not track users, there’s no need to request permission to track,” Brandon Van Ryswyk, an Apple privacy engineer, said in a video session explaining the measurement tool to developers.

There it is. Unless there’s a process that other companies can follow to certify that their solutions don’t track users and get same treatment, then in the end it’s about Apple trying to force themselves as player in the ads business.

It’s well known playbook as they’re similarly forcing themselves into identity business, with new logging requirements.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by Despegar on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:40PM (#23725414)
Apple is incentivizing ad networks to use SKAdNetwork [1], an API that lets you do attribution while preserving privacy. Guaranteeing that necessarily means they have to intermediate the relationship between users, apps and ad networks. They also proposed a similar API for the web [2].

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/skadnetwo...

[2] https://webkit.org/blog/8943/privacy-preserving-ad-click-att...

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by valuearb on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:00PM (#23725090)
Forcing themselves into the identity business? By giving it away for free? What kind of business it that?

I guess it’s the same as trying to get in the ads business by making ads less valuable?

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by harikb on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:03PM (#23725120)
We are way past the argument that “free” => “no value to business”
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by valuearb on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:43PM (#23725446)
Profits are value to business. Profits require revenues.

We are well passed the second internet bubble where Instagram et al can get billion dollar valuations on market share alone. There needs to be a business plan to generate revenues and profits.

So what us Apples business plan for identity? If it’s to add value to iOS and MacOS by providing convenient privacy secure logins to customers, I hardly see that as forcing themselves into the business.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by jsnell on Friday July 03, 2020 @02:04PM (#23726102)
Lock-in. If you move off iOS but are using Apple as the identity provider for third party spots, how painful is migrating your accounts going to be? How well do you think Apple will support the use case of non-Apple device users signing in with Apple? Might as well buy another Apple device when the current one breaks.

There's nothing wrong with Apple trying to increase the stickiness of their platforms, if there's a legit argument to be made that it also improves user experience. The part I find distasteful is the requirement for iOS apps to give preferential treatment to Apple. And honestly, if they were only doing doing this to improve UX, I don't think they would be this heavy handed. Somebody with decision making power wants to make sure that iOS users are selecting that option no matter what.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by dgellow on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:16PM (#23725220)
> I guess it’s the same as trying to get in the ads business by making ads less valuable?

If that damage your competitors more than it damages you, might that be of some value? Not saying that’s Apple is doing, just pointing that could be a thing.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by valuearb on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:47PM (#23725483)
It’s easy to see what Apple is doing here it’s what they’ve always been doing increasing privacy protections for their users to add value to their platform and sell more iPhones and Macs.

Apple is shown repeatedly they don’t care about the advertising market and would gladly burn their offerings to the ground if they impeded their privacy efforts one iota.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by slivanes on Friday July 03, 2020 @01:50PM (#23725974)
Please understand that Apple is not in love with their user's privacy, they are in love with money and selling to markets.

. Why else would Apple set Google as the default search engine on iOS? They get paid (a lot!) by Google to be the default.

. They sold out to Chinese citizens by allowing their data centers to be read by their authoritarian government.

. Apple dropped plans to let iPhone users fully encrypt backups of their devices in the company’s iCloud service after the FBI complained that the move would harm investigations.

Still think Apple loves privacy more than anything else?

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by doteka on Friday July 03, 2020 @01:50PM (#23725975)
Which as a consumer is exactly why I will continue giving them my money. The sooner targeted online advertising burns to the ground, the better, as far as I’m concerned.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by kodablah on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:35PM (#23725370)
> Forcing themselves into the identity business? By giving it away for free?

The price has nothing to do with the "forcing" part, unsure why you are guessing that's what is being referred to. The word "forcing" is clear enough on its own.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by valuearb on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:45PM (#23725464)
“Forcing” only makes sense in the usage by a butt hurt competitor seeking to monopolize the market. For consumers it’s “opening” the market with a superior safer solution.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by Abishek_Muthian on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:17PM (#23725221)
>free Apple-made tool

I wouldn't be surprised if it requires macOS to work and a yearly paid license to use that free tool.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by kodablah on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:30PM (#23725334)
> It’s well known playbook

The playbook is much more broad and is basically "we are privileged on our platform _and_ we unavoidably restrict the lesser privileged". Many don't like this (myself included) and many do. Simply put, where you reasonably can, choose the platform that has the restrictions you can accept or work around.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by mlthoughts2018 on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:07PM (#23725160)
It’s funny too because any ad attribution methodology that’s not tracking users is going to suffer so much confounding to render it utterly useless. Of course it will show you Big Lift! but the reality is you could have negative lift and the attribution methodology won’t be capable of detecting it or accounting for necessary confounders to isolate the effect of the ad from other effects.

In essence, if you’re not tracking user-level behavior, then you should not be caring about any statistical attribution methodology at all, just use something different entirely, based on simple aggregates or top line metrics like revenue without modeling return on ad spend at all.

Anything that tries to do attribution on different cohorts, like demographic slices, etc., without controlling for individual level confounders, is complete misleading hot garbage.

So these customers of Apple’s sexy new ad attribution are probably paying a big premium to get ripped off with useless data. Such a system categorically can’t exist (and shouldn’t be desired) in cases where you don’t want to permit individual level tracking.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by tareqak on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:24PM (#23725275)
If it is going to be utterly useless as easily as you claim, then it should be easy for the sixteen advertising agencies to prove that it will be utterly useless and that advertisers should push back against Apple and their new warning.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by mlthoughts2018 on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:41PM (#23725423)
You have an unfortunate view that the ad attribution business is predicated on rational choices by advertisers.

It’s more similar to investment management business. You could likewise say it’ll be easy for competitors to prove a firm is having bad quarters of portfolio underperformance, yet firms with bad track records consistently keep getting new business. Why is that?

The underlying business proposition is more like consulting and blame protection. You can always fire your ad attribution partner and claim their “number crunching” was bogus to save your own ass. You don’t pay them to give you actionable ad strategy or performance measurement, just like eg the investment board of a pension fund doesn’t hire an investment manager to actually get higher returns.

You pay them to make it look like you, the board member or the ad account manager, did all you could and any failings are down to uncontrollable poor performance of your vendor, which you then look like the good guy for firing, or look like the visionary for jumping ship to sexy AI solutions then jumping ship back to “classic” solutions when the AI solutions predictably don’t work. You do this for a while collecting bonuses and protecting your job, at the massive expense of the pension fund or advertising campaigns you are supposed to oversee, then you quit or get fired and play musical chairs to fail up into the same role at the next place.

In many companies that run advertising, the ultimate choice of what ad spend to pursue is an unbelievably political shitstorm. There are arguments for spending on generic brand awareness (which has no goals related to attribution at all) vs ambitious “creative” ads & extravagance like Super Bowl ads, vs scientific ad experiments on defined cohorts of users.

Nobody knows about (or gives a shit about) actually tracking the performance of all this beyond doing a bunch of headless chicken scrambling around to make some spreadsheets and slide decks to keep a job or argue for a bonus.

To the executives a layer up it’s either a big cocktail party of all the different styles of pursuing ads and business is good and they don’t really care, or else it’s a needless cost center when business is bad and they give grain offerings to the advertising gods to decide what to cut.

But nobody is seriously pursuing quant advertising. That is all just fluff branding. And this play by Apple is more of the same, just branding for professional services through using their anti-competitive moats around iOS.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by tareqak on Friday July 03, 2020 @01:09PM (#23725645)
I am confused. Advertising either works sufficiently well or it doesn’t. If it does work sufficiently well, then that means that it brings in more money than it costs. If targeted advertising works better than generic advertising, then targeted advertising brings in more than generic advertising. And vice versa. If advertising using privacy-protecting statistical methods works just as well, then again it should show up in the numbers.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by mlthoughts2018 on Friday July 03, 2020 @01:23PM (#23725755)
You definitely don’t understand causal inference of ad attribution if this is what you think.

I’ll give an example from a real experience I worked on before. A client was a large haircut chain and they gave us a data set of individuals that had received a specific ad campaign from them via a loyalty program (so it had a variety of demographic and customer history data).

When we used the transactions data on this cohort to measure specific lift in the ad campaign, it was hugely negative - we thought there must be some kind of bug in the code, stressed out late nights coding and sanity checking everything and finding no issues that could explain it.

Our internal managers said we cannot go back to the client and ask for details or anything until we fix the negative lift because “negative lift isn’t actually possible in real advertising.” (Literal quote from an experienced manager in a well-known advertising analytics firm - I even showed him plenty of research out of Facebook, Google and academia disproving it, but it was totally taboo to mention negative lift).

Finally after some agonizing weeks we had no choice but to go back to the client and ask them to explain the full mechanics of their ad delivery, how people were targeted, to see if there was some bias or something we had no way to account for.

And of course - they told us all these individuals had been given a physical coupon as they were leaving from a haircut. OMG! The physical mechanics of a haircut means you are obviously not coming back for another one for say 3-4 weeks on average, and you also won’t have perfect customer retention, so basically there is no way this kind of campaign can produce positive lift unless you build a statistical model that successfully controls for the built in customer churn and the mechanical delay period before the ad treatment could possibly causally effect people’s next haircut choice.

This is just a drop in the bucket of strange things advertisers do. Often they won’t tell you targeting details like this, because they believe their method of targeting (even as simple as a coupon for loyalty rewards members) is some type of proprietary technique. This gets really really bad with firms that run their own digital advertising. If they are targeting “upper income people who just bought a BMW” via The Trade Desk, that’ll hugely skew any attribution modeling if they refuse to tell you they did that. A ton of the quant work of ad attribution is trying to automatically control for as many of these glaring omissions from the client as you can, since they often lie, refuse to tell you, or are actually wrong about the targeting they believed they used.

In short, measuring whether it was the ad’s effect that led to that macro increase or decrease in revenue is no easier than the general problem of causal inference from non-random trial data lacking clean splits, and often is much harder.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by mlthoughts2018 on Friday July 03, 2020 @01:43PM (#23725910)
Perhaps for a simpler example: imagine you start an ad campaign on the same exact day the government issues a huge stimulus check. You see a big increase of sales. Is it because the ad did a good job of causally impacting people to choose your brand? Or is it because the world changed underneath your feet and suddenly lots of people with pre-existing demand had more money? Maybe your ad even had a negative effect because more people were willing to spend the stimulus check on your product, but they were turned off by the ad - so your revenue went way up but the ad actually lost you money.

This is about the simplest type of confounding example you’ll see - real world ad attribution is far messier, with 10 or 15 of these issues all intermixing, some of which you have measured data to possibly use as a control, some of which you don’t.

Your client might not even have done any control group at all. They might just say, “we sent this ad to absolutely everyone, how did it perform compared to a hypothetical where we didn’t send it at all?”

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by tareqak on Friday July 03, 2020 @02:04PM (#23726104)
I see what you are saying: that there are too many confounding variables involved and it is not as simple as A implies B. I’d then argue the same thing about attribution then though: a company like Google or Facebook might be measuring many variables for a given user across however many surfaces they can possibly reach, but some set of offline variables that are invisible / unknowable from their vantage point might be the actual cause of a given conversion. If this is indeed the case, then measuring aggregate advertising metrics should be sufficient enough to inform ad spend in the long run.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by fairenough42 on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:27AM (#23724811)
Are they moving into ads as the hardware business dries up for them? In my personal experience, many people don't replace their phones as often as they did, say, 10 years ago. A similar story played out earlier with laptops. There's no obvious new hardware category for Apple to pivot into so maybe software is their next play.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by yellow_postit on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:22PM (#23725255)
They tried before from 2010-2016 [1]. I do think this is their long term play — getting credit card transaction data and shutting others out.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by scarface74 on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:27PM (#23725304)
They don’t have any way to access credit card data unless you have an Apple credit card. Even then, I don’t think Goldman Sachs share the data with them.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by jodrellblank on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:31PM (#23725339)
>There's no obvious new hardware category for Apple to pivot into

Was it obvious that AirPods would become a $4Bn revenue stream, or that Watch would take the lion’s share of the watch market despite having battery life of <1 day, or that Apple computer would move into regulator approved consumer heart monitoring?

Rumours of Apple TV and Apple Car and an Apple AR gadget have been around a long time.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by copp on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:47AM (#23724973)
Yes they are. Ads in Apstore and News.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by jackjeff on Friday July 03, 2020 @05:06PM (#23727646)
They’re selling watches, they just released the iPhone SE which competes with mid-range Android phones, and they have new revenues from their rent seeking activities on App Store and Apple Pay. In addition, their new line of Mac ARM will remove the Intel tax. I think they’ll do just fine without becoming another advertisement company.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by spideymans on Friday July 03, 2020 @02:11PM (#23726154)
>There's no obvious new hardware category for Apple to pivot into so maybe software is their next play.

Lets revisit this comment in a year or two when they release their AR and VR products.

Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by scarface74 on Friday July 03, 2020 @12:13PM (#23725201)
You have looked at their latest earnings haven’t you?
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by saagarjha on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:28AM (#23724830)
Not software but services.
Re:Google-backed groups criticize Apple's new warnings on us... by throwaway2048 on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:30AM (#23724848)
saying their hardware business is "drying up" is some pretty extreme hyperbole