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Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by DennisP on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @07:07PM (#23707900)
I've been in a lot of well-run Roberts meetings, ranging from a dozen to a thousand people. People who didn't get their way always felt they'd had a fair shot at it.

I was also in a "consensus-based" meeting with a couple dozen people. It was dominated by one person who just kept insisting on getting their way, until everybody else got tired and "agreed."

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by lliamander on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @07:30PM (#23708093)
> I was also in a "consensus-based" meeting with a couple dozen people. It was dominated by one person who just kept insisting on getting their way, until everybody else got tired and "agreed."

Sounds like a manifestation of Nassim Taleb's "Dictatorship of the Small [Intransigent] Minority"[1]

[1]https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by 082349872349872 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:33AM (#23711164)
A game-theoretic problem with positive sum games (as opposed to zero sum) is that apart from obvious focal points, there's no objective way to split the positivity of the payoff.

I've been brought up to "always leave something on the table", but I understand that other societies hold the opposite.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @07:45PM (#23708210)
RRO is used for the US Congress. That may be why it was developed.

It is far from perfect, but I feel it works.

I have been in many RRO meetings, and a few "CBDM" meetings.

I worked for a Japanese corporation for a long time, and saw their consensus system, which was painful, but worked. It was completely different from the "CBDM" meetings I've attended.

I once wrote up a very complete presentation and paper on real CBDM, but no one was ever interested in learning about it.

In my experience, most CBDM meetings aren't actually designed for "consensus." They are designed to let "the people that matter" accelerate the process of getting what they want.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by C1sc0cat on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:54AM (#23711285)
I have been to many meetings based on similar principals and am the Chair of standing orders for a large UK Union

RRO based off us/common practice but Congress, Senate and the House of Commons do a lot a "naughty shit" that are outside RRO / Citrine.

Amending a motion with non related things should really be ruled out of order.

The "naughty shit" is a direct quote from a former whip.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:12AM (#23711382)
I was corrected, that the US Congress uses something that is not exactly the same.

Might be similar for UK Parliament.

But you guys have the most downright entertaining government in the world.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by C1sc0cat on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:34AM (#23711487)
Erskine and May a hard copy of which costs £400

It is online at https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/

But the executive has far to much power in the UK in my opinion - you can see why thye went after John Bercow as he was pushing back.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:37AM (#23711503)
I'll miss him. He was a great Speaker.
Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by Animats on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:17AM (#23711067)
RRO is used for the US Congress. That may be why it was developed.

The US House of Representatives uses a set of rules based on Jefferson's Manual. Bill flow is a bit different than Roberts Rules of Order, but the concepts are very similar.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:08AM (#23711369)
Thanks. I stand corrected. I just assumed (ASS out of U and ME), because I see them use the same language. I think there’s something in the intro to RRO about it, as well.

Been awhile since I read it. It’s not light reading.

Also, most folks use modern versions (copyrighted, so not open-sourced) of RRO.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by toomim on Thursday July 02, 2020 @01:28AM (#23710301)
How does the IETF's process compare? They famously run on "rough consensus."
Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by bo1024 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @08:01PM (#23708337)
Link to your CBDM stuff?
Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @08:09PM (#23708390)
I can send you a DropBox link, but I won't publish it here. Send me an email (See my HN profile).

It's pretty damn complete. It's actually a multi-hour class.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:32AM (#23711478)
Well... that was fun. Downright nerdy as heck. Seems like folks leveraged most of my contact options.

If I missed anyone, let me know.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by someguyorother on Thursday July 02, 2020 @06:12AM (#23711694)
>I was also in a "consensus-based" meeting with a couple dozen people. It was dominated by one person who just kept insisting on getting their way, until everybody else got tired and "agreed."

I heard somewhere about a variant that would be interesting to try: everyone specifies a favorite option and a consensus option. If the consensus option eventually attains a supermajority, it wins, otherwise you choose a member at random and his/her favorite option wins.

Because random is fair but usually bad, there's an incentive to reach a consensus. Anyone who blocks the discussion is gambling with the risk of getting a bad favorite option.

You could probably fix the most egregious risks by say choosing at random from the options that a supermajority don't object to. (E.g. choose an option at random, if a supermajority has marked "definitely not this", then loop to the beginning and pick another one at random.)

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by washadjeffmad on Thursday July 02, 2020 @09:47AM (#23713008)
One of our presidents over a pool of largely self interested and disparately oriented divisions has a similar tactic.

When they have a big decision to make, he puts the division heads in a room, says "so, what are we going to do?", lets them bluff and bicker in their usual way, and then proposes in all seriousness the worst possible and least effective way to technically accomplish what has to be done. It's a gift, really.

It's effectiveness in unifying them through their desperation to make sure it never comes to pass is unparalleled.

He also had those same people give each other researched introductions to his leadership, which is every bit as brilliant and trollish as it sounds.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by 082349872349872 on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:28AM (#23711137)
My impression of the reason consensus works for the Society of Friends is that they don't get tired, but rely on "seasoning", being willing to take time, over several meetings if necessary, to find unity.
Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by C1sc0cat on Thursday July 02, 2020 @05:26AM (#23711453)
Reminds me of a friend who at Uni who went to FCS (federation of conservative students) meetings that where run like this.

Dominated by "drunken yahoos" was her comment, I believe this is where Guido Fawkes cut his teeth.

Re:Robert's Rules of Order (1876) by Yhippa on Thursday July 02, 2020 @12:20AM (#23709988)
I second this. I've been a part of board meetings where I'm impressed how efficient and timely things can get if you use these rules.