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Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by robertlagrant on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:39AM (#23667293)
This is interesting. Do you have (or know of) a published comparison somewhere?
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by martin_a on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:32AM (#23667481)
What kind of comparison are you expecting?

Go to hetzner.de, create an account, fire up one of their 5€/month VPS and see if it runs your application well. If it doesn't, upgrade the VPS (or whatever) till the max or until you decide that AWS or whatnot might be better suited (or cheaper).

It's nothing personal against you, but those comparisons aren't worth anything. They are highly specific to the test case, which might very likely not be like the stuff you are trying to run.

And I've just so often seen people on StackOverflow ask how to fix their AWS setup to run a simple WordPress site, it's unbelievable.

There's this old saying: "If the only tool you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

That pretty much works for GC/AWS/Azure, too.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by mmahemoff on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:47AM (#23667939)
You can't learn everything by just trying the service though. Particularly on issues like downtime, support, and how they handle spikes. Also some providers have been known to artificially elevate resources for new users until they're locked in.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by sumedh on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:00AM (#23667756)
I think hetzner has servers in Germany and Finland only, not the right choice for most people here.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by unixhero on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:48AM (#23667945)
Hosting in Finland and Germany is a great choice for a lot of the right reasons.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by smerdyakov on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:19AM (#23668250)
Additionally, because it is hosted in Germany, you need to send them a copy of your ID and I found that their support was quite amateurish. So for me the process was: Go to hetzner.de, create an account, it gets instantly closed because you have a UK driving licence but were born elsewhere (perhaps too complicated for them?).

Never had that from AWS or OVH.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by number6 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @05:44AM (#23667701)
This is how I roll out my services. Always wondered if I need AWS, but always lacked the use case.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by shoo on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:42AM (#23667517)
For heztner, just read the list prices for dedicated servers:

https://www.hetzner.com/dedicated-rootserver/ or maybe https://www.hetzner.com/sb

For example, a dedicated "AX51-NVMe" server for 65 euro / month = 73 usd / month gives you: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X Octa-Core (8 physical aka 16 logical cores), RAM: 64 GB DDR4 ECC, NVMe: 2x 1 TB NVMe SSD, unlimited traffic. That's less than half the cost of lightsail per logical core, or less than 1/4 of the cost of lightsail per GB of ECC ram.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by caballeto on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:22AM (#23667850)
That seems like a very powerful machine at an incredibly low cost. The closest equivalent at DigitalOcean is RAM 64 GB, 16 CPUs, 1.25 TB SSD, 9 TB transfer at $320/month. If I understand correctly the DO instance will have lower performance because it's virtual, and not bare metal. That amounts to about 4-5x difference in price, which is tremendous, considering that I thought DO to be the one of the cheapest providers. Is this comparison correct or am I missing something?
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by kuschku on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:54AM (#23668402)
The part your missing is that basically all dedicated server hosters are this cheap.

DO, Vultr, AWS, GCP, Azure are the odd ones out and extremely expensive.

The only reason ever not to use dedicated servers is if you're in the bay area and ops wages are so overinflated that you literally can't afford an ops or devops person.

For everyone else on the planet, the comparison between the wage of an ops person, and server costs, is always in favor of dedicated hardware with your own ops people.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by jwr on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:57PM (#23671575)
The thing I don't understand is why would people consider AWS to have lower "ops" costs?

I can deploy my SaaS either to VPS servers (AWS, DigitalOcean, Azure, etc) or to physical servers. Both deployments use the same ansible automation. The only difference is that I additionally use terraform to set up the cloud instances.

In every case, if a machine fails it is my problem.

Where is the savings on ops/devops?

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by kuschku on Saturday July 11, 2020 @03:56AM (#23800391)
Hilariously, this whole thing is again showing up as issue on the frontpage: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798347
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by kuschku on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @11:00AM (#23690722)
> Where is the savings on ops/devops?

I don't know either, I've always used european dedicated hosters.

But apparently the typical YC user needs to pay 300'000$/year for a dedicated ops person just to run an ansible script?

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by sokoloff on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:21AM (#23668868)
Any employee comes with overhead costs ($$ and time and risk). Lots of side projects get off the ground only because people don’t have to cover the fixed quantum of costs that hiring an employee brings.

“If this doesn’t take off, I’m on the hook for ~$100/month when it could have been under $10/month“ just isn’t that compelling.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by marcosdumay on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:20AM (#23669322)
Ops has a low baseline complexity, and scales more or less linearly with usage on low usage scenarios.

It's something worth optimizing, but the idea that it will break a starting initiative isn't realistic.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by jwr on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:54PM (#23671557)
You are not missing anything. I wondered about this myself, then started using physical servers from Hetzner for my SaaS. Quite happy with the results over the last 4 years.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by merb on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:46PM (#23672671)
what did the interconnection between the dedicated servers cost? in the past, there was no vlan support, i.e. you need to buy the interconnection, which was not cheap.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by jwr on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:11AM (#23675178)
There are VLANs, but I don't use them. I found it's easier to use vpncloud (https://vpncloud.ddswd.de), that way I can use the same setup for development/staging/production, and it doesn't matter if the specific provider used supports VPCs/VLANs.

Also, with vpncloud I know that my data gets encrypted and is private — not necessarily the case with various VLAN setups.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by merb on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @03:39AM (#23698872)
when I started with hetzner there was no vlan, you needed to pay an "extra pack" and an additional network card for interconnection, with more than two servers you also would need to pay for an router and of course the time it did take to setup. so not really that cheap in the past.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by sweeneyrod on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:09AM (#23668220)
They're not quite comparable, the Hetzner equivalent to that would be the CCX41 plus some extra storage for around $200/month (but you get 11 TB extra transfer). In general I think DigitalOcean VPS's are 1-3x the price of Hetzner ones.

I don't know why Hetzner dedicated servers are so cheap (they're also cheaper than their equivalent VPS's). I guess they take a bit longer to set up but there must be more to it than that.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by snuxoll on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:46PM (#23670549)
A dedicated server is a one month commitment, possibly with a setup fee, Hetzner also charges to do things like replace failed drives.

You also don’t get the benefits of a virtualized instance like live migration for host maintenance. You can run your own hypervisor - but you’ll probably want extra hardware like 10Gb switches and the appropriate cross connects and as well as paying the one-time server move fee.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by bondant on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:00PM (#23671604)
>Hetzner also charges to do things like replace failed drives

Are you sure? If I look at the AX dedicated server page, I can read that the basic support is free:

"Basic support includes the free replacement of defective hardware and the renewed loading of the basic system (in so far as a disk image system can be loaded)."

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by snuxoll on Friday July 03, 2020 @03:40PM (#23726835)
They’ll replace the drive for free - but likely with another used disk with quite some hours of runtime under its belt. If you want a new disk you need to pony up most of the time.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by redis_mlc on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:31AM (#23667886)
Dedicated servers are very cheap.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by caballeto on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:43AM (#23667922)
Could you please elaborate why? I thought they should be premium, as they are faster, have more memory and better performance because of bare metal, etc.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by Nextgrid on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:59AM (#23669635)
The question should be the other way around. Dedicated servers are not cheap per-se, they're just being sold at the market price.

The question should be, why is AWS so expensive on all fronts (not just the hardware but also bandwidth)? And the answer is again because the market lets them get away with it.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by thu2111 on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:47AM (#23675425)
AWS is so profitable it turned Amazon from a marginal business into a tech giant. As for Google and Microsoft they don't get out of bed in the morning for anything less than a billion dollar opportunity.

A large part of the cost of a VM on these clouds is paying their super high employee comp, for advanced software development e.g. CosmosDB/DynamoDB, but most of all, contributing to the high revenue growth that drives stock prices.

It's not paying for the actual cost of hardware. Smart people know this and don't run in the cloud unless they get a sweetheart deal. Consider that GitHub, for example, runs/ran in their own datacenter and used the cloud only for spillover capacity. Zoom also (although now Oracle cut them a sweetheart deal). Netflix built their own CDN etc.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by lvncelot on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:14AM (#23668044)
You pay them monthly instead of hourly, also you have to manage them yourself.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by redis_mlc on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:34PM (#23672605)
How to manage a bare metal server running CentOS automatically:

Add this cron job:

yum -y update

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by thu2111 on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:51AM (#23675437)
It's not quite that easy, is it.

At minimum you need a data replication and backup strategy. You're exposed to things like drive and RAM failures on dedicated hosts, so you'd need to think about RAID at least, unless you're running a system that clusters at a higher level (but then you need multiple machines).

However this is basically a matter of learning or hiring/renting a sysadmin to do it for you.

MTBF stats for different classes of hardware at different hosts would be valuable to have, as it can be affected by things like datacenter temperature. But I never heard of such a dataset.

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by dx034 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:13AM (#23667414)
I don't have a comparison but Hetzner is pretty much unbeatable in price if you can live with having your servers in Europe. If not, OVH, DigitalOcean, Linote or Vultr are good alternatives with datacenters around the globe and prices below that of AWS.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by callmeal on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:41AM (#23669506)
>If not, OVH, DigitalOcean, Linote or Vultr are good alternatives with datacenters around the globe and prices below that of AWS.

Sure they're below AWS, but if you compare lightsail, they're pretty much identical.

https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/

https://aws.amazon.com/lightsail/pricing/?opdp1=pricing

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by mxschumacher on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:52AM (#23667554)
I know that hetzner is affordable, but is digital ocean really cheaper than AWS?
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by uaas on Sunday June 28, 2020 @05:07AM (#23667604)
That would largely depend on your usecase.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by jwr on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:52PM (#23671544)
I created a comparison myself, because I couldn't find one. It was for my specific workload, which is CPU-intensive, but could be useful for others, too. An important find was that what we are being sold are not "cores", but "vCPUs", which usually correspond to hyperthreads, on slow Xeons. Which means no performance to speak of if the machine is loaded, which it usually is.

My conclusion was to rent physical servers (I use Hetzner) and get great performance at a fraction of the price.

https://jan.rychter.com/enblog/cloud-server-cpu-performance-...

Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by caballeto on Monday June 29, 2020 @07:43AM (#23676633)
Great read, thanks! I would definitely consider using dedicated servers instead of VPCs. AWS seems to be ridiculously overpriced.
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by alephu5 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:05AM (#23667777)
Re:How we got our AWS bill to around 2% of revenue by EGreg on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:58AM (#23667363)
Would like to see this too