News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by chewz on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:06AM (#23598976)
> Lessons to be learned

* even a pretty obvious fraud can go on much longer than one would think if the organizers are ruthless enough. My original short position would have gone against me 25x over 12 years and the share price even after today’s disaster would be higher than back in 2008 (just to be clear: the company is worth ZERO in my opinion)

* a company that goes against people who write negative articles as aggressively as Wirecard has something to hide

* if the profitability of a business can not be explained by its business model, then most likely something is very wrong (greetings Bernie Madoff)

* 99% of professional investors and analysts don’t care about these things even if you tell them. A lot of people knew that the company was fishy but hey thought they can make money anyway and a lot of people made a lot of money over the years

* Small companies with far flung operations in difficult geographies should be avoided (see Globo Plc) as this makes fraud difficult to detect for auditors

* A big 4 Audit firm is no proof of quality.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by yellowstuff on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:44AM (#23599157)
Enron is one example of how these things can turn out, but Herbalife (HLF) is another. HLF is a multi-level marketing company; they're a shady company in an inherently shady business; they have far-flung operations; they aggressively went after people expressing negative information; they had questionable accounting; and there were eventually regulatory rulings against them. But they also are a profitable business that sells stuff that people want to buy. They started getting a lot of press over being a fraud in 2012, today the stock is 30% higher than the 2012 peak, and Bill Ackman lost around $1B shorting it before he gave up.

"Fake it til you make it" isn't just for tech startups. A lot of companies juice results with a bit of fraud, but eventually get good real results anyway. It's hard to tell the difference between an outright fraud and a healthy company with aggressive accounting.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by Nextgrid on Monday June 22, 2020 @09:22AM (#23599868)
> they also are a profitable business that sells stuff that people want to buy

[citation needed]

Just like the other MLMs (or rather pyramid schemes, because that's what they really are), they sell a (unprofitable) lifestyle using deceptive marketing. The products are secondary (they're just there to keep regulators at bay) and are always sub-par and inferior to what can be found off-the-shelf.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by intuitionist on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:58AM (#23601658)
There’s nothing illegal, or inherently unprofitable (for the business), about selling people a lifestyle. Louis Vuitton sells people a lifestyle. Harley-Davidson sells people a lifestyle. Apple sells people a lifestyle. All of these companies have products, sure, but the products aren’t really the point.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by Nextgrid on Monday June 22, 2020 @01:12PM (#23602745)
Louis Vuitton, Harley Davidson, etc do not give people the illusion of owning their business and do not encourage them to stockpile garbage products in their garage to keep their "status" in their "business". They do not encourage people to con their friends & family into the scam either.

Furthermore, most of these luxury goods have actual value. Even if you are stupid enough to go into tons of debt and fill your garage with Harleys, there will be plenty of buyers who will be happy to take it from you at a small loss. In comparison, nobody will buy a garage full of Herbalife - the cost of shipping would be more expensive than the market value of the product itself.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by mrmuagi on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:46PM (#23602377)
It is illegal when the product makes serious health claims not backed by scientific research. The more insidious cases of this relate to cancer or covid 'cures'.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by paganel on Monday June 22, 2020 @08:47AM (#23599565)
I'm no Bill Ackman but I still do think that Herbalife is a fraud.

It's basically just a better marketed MLM company, I first realised about the MLM part 12 or 13 years ago when I went to one of their presentations in my city (got out as soon as I could), which I guess leaves them with the "better marketing" part, which I admit they're pretty good at (if I'm not mistaken at some point they were sponsoring the football team AC Milan and the football player David Beckham).

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by pjc50 on Monday June 22, 2020 @09:35AM (#23599992)
The ftalphaville coverage of Herbalife has been consistently interesting, e.g. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/07/18/2169979/herbalife-avo...
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:11AM (#23598999)
The first one really is key here. Exhibit A is "stablecoin" Tether, which has more red flags than a Kremlin May Day parade and steadfastly refuses to get audited, but has nevertheless been puttering away for several years now. When will the penny drop?

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/10/28/tether-and-bitfinex/

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by chewz on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:17AM (#23599033)
From my experience a fraud is easy to spot with a keen eye. But persuading the public that hot company is a fraud - different matter.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by C1sc0cat on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:13AM (#23599009)
How do you avoid getting audited for several years ?
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by sokoloff on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:16AM (#23599030)
As a cryptocurrency? You just decide not to get audited.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by lordnacho on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:18AM (#23599037)
I'm no expert, but I think what happens is you shop around for an auditor but you somehow can never find one who will sign off on the audit, because they need you to produce some docs that you don't have.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Monday June 22, 2020 @08:48AM (#23599566)
s/don't have/don't want to give/
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by seanhunter on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:23PM (#23602011)
If you're not a public company then in many/most jurisdictions it's up to the owners/investors to decide whether or not to have audited financials. If they are a 100% legit and have assets to back their tether there really isn't much of a reason not to have that audited and published on a website. For example bullionvault.com publish an audit of physical metal reserves daily.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by nabla9 on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:36AM (#23599116)
Another:

* They tie big names into the firm to get credibility. Hire them into the board, or pay them good money for short term consulting gigs.

Examples:

1) Gen. James Mattis was in Theranos board. So was Henry Kissinger and George Shultz.

2) Enron paid Paul Krugman $50,000 to attend at least two times in advisory board meetings, nothing related to Enron business. What Enron really bought was the ability to say Paul Krugman was in the advisory board. https://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/enron.html

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by tnolet on Monday June 22, 2020 @09:18AM (#23599822)
The book on Theranos (Bad Blood) actually makes the argument that no “real” big names were in Theranos: Kissinger, Mattis and Schultz knew nothing about health care or medicin. They are/were career politicians. The book argues investors with actual experience in the industry staid far away.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by catalogia on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:05PM (#23601764)
None of this went unnoticed as soon as the company came to public attention. One of the first discussions on HN about Theranos had people being impressed with the big names on the board, and other people noting that it lacked connections to the healthcare industry.

> That is a pretty stunning board of directors as well. I don't doubt their CEO can get an introduction to, and lunch with, nearly anyone on the planet.

> This board seems heavily geared to do deals for defense-related applications. That's fine; getting deals with the Armed Forces and VA is feasible and quite rewarding. What they overtly lack is connections to the healthcare world. I'm surprised they aren't publicly roped into Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic or Kaiser, as they to support novel technologies in this space. I suppose you can argue that the business model is fundamentally incompatible, but I've seen Mayo and Kaiser go in anyway; they can acquire these labs and roll them into operations pretty easily.

> That BOD is stunning with heavy national security/ military operations. I almost thought it was a CIA cover company.

> So, it's a health testing company that will keep all my blood-related health information and make it "actionable", with the backing of James Mattis, William Perry and none other than Henry Kissinger. There are more soldiers in that board there than doctors. The only way I'd give them my blood would be to infect them with a disease.

> Wow. She must be a pretty amazing woman to have collected such strong allies. I'd have lunch with her.

[This last one was downvoted, but is probably the sort of reaction Theranos was hoping to engineer.]

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by nabla9 on Monday June 22, 2020 @10:07AM (#23600333)
Could briefly comment what you think I meant with big name?
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by tnolet on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:54AM (#23601602)
Well known, powerful folks but also experts in the field or respected in the specific industry they are investing in / are board members of.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by pythonwizz on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:27AM (#23599080)
I wrote this here a few days ago:

-------------------------

Wirecard has been accused before of fraud by so called "short sellers". The document published (2 years ago?) showed a tremendous, extraordinary complex network of international corporations. Such complex setups have a very limited purpose. It can basically be only tax "optimization", hide fraud or hide ownership (UBO). After having seen this PDF I would not touch the Wirecard stock.

By the way, I think Alibaba is opening two new corporations. Per day. You may also want to read at Bronte Capital about Alibaba.

-------------------------

"the company is worth ZERO in my opinion)"

This IS a possibility. But the stockmarket exaggerates always in both directions, "like a sausage dog on a leash, sometimes walks in front of you, sometimes behind you but always comes back to you" Kostalany

If you want to make a gamble there could be buying prices now or soon. But it stays a gamble.

"Even a good company can be too expensive" Buffet

"Even a shitty company can be cheap" me

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by ArmandGrillet on Monday June 22, 2020 @09:11AM (#23599771)
You forgot the two last ones including "The German BAFIN is not very smart and German financial regulation is substandard", which is a pretty big lesson for the biggest economy in Europe.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by C1sc0cat on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:28AM (#23601265)
Makes the chances of Frankfurt being a Candidate for big companies moving staff from the City even less.

I suspect that Alex in the daily telegraph will be commenting on this shortly.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by blibble on Monday June 22, 2020 @07:33AM (#23599104)
amusingly: back in 2019, when journalists pointed out irregularaties in the company's accounts, the German Financial regulator's reaction was to ban short selling of their shares... and then issue legal proceedings against the journalists

> On Monday, BaFin banned further short selling of shares in Wirecard, the Dax-listed payments services group. The stock has dropped steeply after FT reports raised questions over the validity of accounts. The German financial regulator said its first ever ban on shorting a single stock was needed to prevent a loss of confidence in financial markets.

https://www.ft.com/content/f04793df-43a2-4d69-a39f-e04dac36c... has the full details (but paywall)

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by Kalium on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:00AM (#23609787)
Governments and regulators don't always act in a clear-headed way when a company seen as a national champion is involved. Often the fear of bringing down political wrath, making a mess of national prestige, and more crop up even when explicit political meddling is absent.

A company that understands it's in such a position is, IMO, more likely to misbehave because they know the odds of there being consequences are much lower.

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by C1sc0cat on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:32AM (#23601303)
And sadly that attitude is why you got the Bunga Bunga Parties scandal that VW and IG Metal Where involved in.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by justinclift on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:04AM (#23601010)
Non-paywalled version: https://archive.vn/VAuC7
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by newsclues on Monday June 22, 2020 @08:40AM (#23599502)
How many times will we need to learn that the audits and auditors are not always doing a good job?
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by dr_faustus on Monday June 22, 2020 @08:42AM (#23599518)
substitute "not always" with "almost never".

Edit: The problem is that companies get to pick their auditors. Since the auditors sell a homogenous product (it doesnt really matter, who signs off you yearly report), the only way the big four accounting firms can compete is by being cheaper and/or more "favourable" to the customer. Both not that great for the customer (which actually should be the shareholders and in reality its mostly the board).

Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by toohotatopic on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:28PM (#23602087)
Shouldn't there be a market for a tough auditor? Now a healthy company has a hard time convincing investors that there are no hidden problems. With a tough auditor, you could gain more trust and thus cheaper interest rates.
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by newsclues on Monday June 22, 2020 @01:53PM (#23603346)
If enough of the market is cheating then it puts you at a disadvantage if if you aren’t cheating (the fake market sees your fair baseline as a threat to future cheating)
Re:Wirecard – The “German Enron”, and a personal history by gruez on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:59PM (#23602596)
That would have to be on the investor's side, otherwise the incentives aren't aligned.