I'm interested to know if you can cite specific evidence for that? I've heard that some certain yoga practices (i.e. traditional yoga. Not the westernized kind where you do stretches and talk about positive energy) can be harmful especially to beginners (e.g. kundalini), but that's not what's being discussed here.

Mindfulness just means being aware and non-reactive. All humans experiences mindfulness. Any time we choose to go against our initial impulses is a moment of expressing mindfulness. Mindfulness meditation simply strengthens and expands on that so it holds up under greater pressure and for greater periods of time. It's nothing mystical or psychedelic.

Willoughby Britton is a meditation teacher and researcher who studies adverse effects of meditation and mindfulness. There is a risk of diverse mental problems, especially - but not only - for people with a history of trauma.

As a meditator myself I think it would be helpful if this were more well-known.

If you search for her name, you'll find more information and studies. Here's an interview and article:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/trauma-meditation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-...

Is anything not a risk of mental problems for people with a history of trauma? Risk of mental problems is half the definition of trauma.

I would not classify “mindfulnes” as going against “initial impulses” but rather as being aware of the impulsive reactions and the effect on mind and body to situations and then making a conscious decision on what to do next. This next action can then be in line with the initial impulse or not, it will be mindful either way.

Great point! That's a much more accurate example, thank you

For example, meditation can lead to addiction (to do meditation). This is a certain contradiction, very often to find in the teachings/techers themselves. Meditation lets things pass. This is also true for meditation sessions itself, this is what is sometimes forgotten - it has to end.

In your description, it sounds like building a fence around a hungry tiger. I think, understanding those impulses and directing them into a useful way is a healthier approach.

Except in this analogy doesn't account for the fact that a mindful person can simply wait for the tiger to disappear.

If psychoanalysis has taught us anything, it's that if you're the tiger, it doesn't disappear until confronted.

Recent years has also seen an increase in studies surrounding the sociological concept of `Mobbing'. This has taught us that the tiger only goes away if there is outside help, often in the form of fellow students, teachers, and so on.

If a mindful person can wait, then they don't need a fence to begin with.

It seems reasonable to assume there are outliers.

Perhaps if $historical_bad_actor meditated / exercised / ate better we wouldn’t be here having this conversation.

I’m not trying to be flippant here.

What do you mean of traditional yoga? Yoga sutra of patanjali, which consist of 8 limbs? In USA most yoga studio only touches Asana, which is one limb of Yoga Sutra.

Research into mindfulness emphasises the benefits, but tends to minimise the harm. Some research fails to mention any risk at all. This makes it hard to devise a mindfulness program that doesn't cause harm.

Mindfulness in schools is applied to the entire school population.

Mindfulness in schools is usually delivered by teachers, and not trained therapists or psychologists.

The combination of taking the entire population, including children at higher risk of harm, and not understanding how that harm can be caused, and using people with minimal training to provide the programme, means that some people get harmed.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01410768166441...

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/sites/britton-la...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027273581...

> Mindfulness just means being aware and non-reactive

Mary is a 10 year old girl. She is raped once a week by her step-father. You can see how being "aware" and "non-reactive" might cause extra harm.

Mindfulness is supposed to be a practice, and it's not necessarily an easy thing you can do with all benefits and minimal work. It's also deeply personal and not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.

I think schools should treat meditation like prayer, because it's essentially the same function, and we should just avoid it in the classroom.

Perhaps the real tragedy here is that many students will learn about mindfulness in schools and dismiss it as useless nonsense, when there actually may be something of value in there somewhere.

Prayer and meditation are completely different. There are studies which demonstrate a causal connection between meditation and mental health benefits, and even structural changes in the brain. It demonstrably helps with anxiety and depression. The same cannot be said for prayer.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-resea...

Pinning the problems of rape on meditation is absurd.

If meditation causes Mary to freak out and the rapes to by discovered, that's a pretty huge win for Mary.

The example works even if the rapist has been convicted and is now in prison and Mary is no longer being raped. She deserves access to an evidence-based therapy such as EMDR, and she's not getting that because (in the UK) Government thinks mindfulness in schools is equivalent.

This post seems controversial to the community based on voting. I’m wondering how it does not contribute to the discussion. It seems like an obvious statement? Am I wrong in thinking that no behavioral technique is going to be ubiquitously beneficial?

It doesnt contribute because it is making a claim with no evidence, no discussion of what the harm is, and how common it is. You can basically make that reply to every post on hacker news, ever.

I submitted the article. My comment explains why I submitted the article. The article talks about some of the harms.

"‘Mindfulness doesn’t help me,’ says Tyler, a 13-year-old student in a deprived area of southwest England. ‘Some people it helps, some it can make ’em feel worse.’ Gathered around a table in a large, cluttered classroom, five other students nod. Kayleigh cuts in: ‘Sometimes other things help me more. But they don’t listen to us, they just tell us to do mindfulness.’ "

Sometimes, for whatever reason, people post terse comments.

When that happens, it’ll often spark a thread that then fills in the gaps.

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> risk of harm for a few people

What harm from meditation ?

I've practised meditation in the past and it made my depression worse. Specifically, my thoughts would flow too freely between associations made in the past and made me think about things that I would prefer to have never experienced in my life. Thinking about those things only worsens my condition. I stopped meditating and now I'm much better at compartmentalizing, I have "fences" in my mind which stop me from wandering into dangerous territories by accident. I'd have to make an effort to go past them. I won't do that. Had enough of it already. I know what's good or bad for me.

I recommend the book "Altered Traits". It looks at some benefits of meditation documented using scientific methods. But it also says that it may not be good for everyone. Specifically, it may be dangerous for people struggling with depression.

I think your view is extremely under appreciated, especially as it applies to group settings.

The trendy idea is about "being present" in physical form and acknowledge (but not engage) with any random thoughts that might come your way. I don't want that feeling unless I'm very specifically seeking it out.

Whenever I've had to participate in the "group" versions of these things, I try to think of literally anything else to keep myself distracted until it's over, for fear of wandering into unpleasant territory and causing a mood change when I'm actually supposed to be at work.

I wish there was a word for "sitting in silence with others, frantically searching for anything to think about to avoid letting your mind wander into terrifying places". If this mindfulness thing takes off, maybe someone can come up with a clever way to sum that up. It's a very uneasy feeling.

Also, why my employer would want me to take a mid-day break to meditate is beyond me. It's like they're trying to make me rethink my life decisions and quit.

Sorry I might be wrong here but I feel you are not doing it right. I am told to "not think" during meditation, while you mention "Thinking about those things" which seems not "not think".

Obviously I am no expert or actually even any good at meditating, but maybe try learning from a different teacher who might be able to help you out in this.

Just to reiterate, I might be wrong here and if that's the case just ignore my comment :)

Edit: the following is based on my experience, I can't make claims about all meditation.

It takes a lot of practice to actually be able to do that. The distraction is the meditation - you need to learn notice it and bring your mind back. The drowsiness is the meditation - you need to learn to notice it and raise your energy.

And as you learn to calm your brain without falling asleep, deeper and deeper repressed and ignored thoughts and feeling will come to the surface, because as you're gradually calming all the parts of your mind you are also calming the parts that are repressing the other parts which are enraged and demand a seat at the table. And part of meditation is getting punched in the face by those parts that you have been repressing, until you have faced them, dealt with them, accepted them and integrated them. (Although part of it is also learning when you need to ignore them and not try to "face" or "deal" with them.)

> I am told to "not think" during meditation,

It's impossible not to think, unless you're dead. You even think while you dream! It is possible to avoid thinking concrete thoughts, but when concrete boundaries around acceptable thoughts are protecting you from trauma that's not a useful thing to do.

yeah you are right, so probably an expert meditator might be able to "not think". what we were told to do is think of a single thing/tought/phrase and just keep repeating it, basically minimise the storm of thoughts to one.

Collecting quotes from the article: "'Some people [mindfulness] helps, some it can make ’em feel worse. ... [T]hey don’t listen to us, they just tell us to do mindfulness.' ... "Sharp, eloquent, indignant, the students explain what does help them when they are stressed or upset: talking to people they trust, being listened to, having fun. ... They have many ideas about what their school can do to help them, but it seems like no one is listening."

Generally speaking, if you're in a bad environment, getting more in tune with your feelings and how you react to your environment can make you feel more acute pain. Conversely, becoming numb and unaware of your feelings can help avoid the pain, and possibly help you remain more functional, at least in the short term.

Of course, pain tends to signify a problem that has significance beyond the pain itself (pain for pain's sake would seem to have negative evolutionary value, but e.g. pain that encourages you to avoid sharp objects has positive value), so ignoring it seems like a bad thing in the medium and long term. However, if you have no practical options for fixing the underlying problem, then it may just be pain without gain.