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Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by hkarthik on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:49PM (#23576217)
If you don’t like how Apple does business, stop using their products.

If you don’t like how Google does business, stop using their products.

If you don’t like how either one does business, stop using technology all together.

I am being facetious, but mainly to illustrate the point that we now have a series of entrenched monopolies in the tech world so “stop using X” isn’t a realistic solution.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by froasty on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:00PM (#23577130)
Every time someone says "I have no choice but to go against the dictates of my conscience" it translates to "I have a choice to have my own will free of coercion, but I don't want to pay the entry fee of having integrity."

No one is forcing anyone to use Apple or Google products. Anyone that wants the nominal "benefits" that they provide, continues to make the moment-by-moment choice of using them. You can throw your iPhone or Android phone away (or sell it and give the proceeds to the poor, e.g. child cobalt miners or Foxconn workers). You can get a dumb phone. You can live (shockingly!) without having a cellphone at all. Your job requires you to have a MacBook? Get a different job. The lifestyle you choose may require you to have these things, but that's because you choose the lifestyle over personal integrity.

No one can actually follow their own morality and someone else's. You either prove a hypocrite to yourself or a hypocrite to others. You can't serve both justice and the marketplace.

You could take no thought for your career, nor how you would make your living, nor where you would live; nor even the clothes you would wear in the morning. Is living not more than jobs, money, and clothing?

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by alkonaut on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:18PM (#23576622)
That’s a very cumbersome a way of getting what I want. It’s much better and easier if e.g the EU simply makes Apple do the right thing by force. The market doesn’t solve this kind of problem.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by koheripbal on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:27PM (#23576768)
We already have anti-trust regulations that are supposed to stop these sorts of anti-competitive behaviors.

A company is not allowed to use its position as a "market" to ALSO give an unfair advantage to its own products - or to shut out competitors without reasonable cause.

...but these laws aren't being enforced. It's funny to remember Microsoft being forced to de-couple Internet Explorer from Windows, and yet the idea of de-coupling the app Store from IOS or the Play store from Android does not seem to occur to regulators.

I have a conspiracy theory that they like that American companies have this market strangle-hold and are unwilling to give market share to EU or Chinese competitors. Imagine all the data collect lost!

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by dgb23 on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:00PM (#23577139)
In theory there is already an open technology which is decoupled from these platforms: the browser. Job’s vision was exactly that.

Now we’re still(!) in a place where standards are being fought by the likes if Apple, because they have an incentive to weaken open standards in favor of their closed platforms.

This is a grotesque strategy that needs to stop.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by jpttsn on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:54PM (#23580854)
Indeed. And if my local restaurant doesn’t have a nice table for me, it’s much easier if Tony Soprano can have a little talk with the owner.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by alkonaut on Saturday June 20, 2020 @02:23AM (#23582170)
How is doing something illegal at all related?

To me, “laws” are something the majority massages into a state where they benefit the most people. This looks like one of those cases. Changing the laws (or in this case probably just enforcing them) is different from acting outside the law or breaking laws.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by scarface74 on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:52PM (#23578259)
You know this whole capitalist system would be much easier if the government had “5 Year Plans”.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by PopeDotNinja on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:58PM (#23576340)
In principal I agree with you. But consider the case of Gmail. You have to communicate with a lot of people that use Gmail, and Google can block that because one of their robots decides it doesn't like your host/server/domain/IP/face. You have little recourse to resolve this, probably even less so if you don't have a Google account.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by eat on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:02PM (#23576408)
The comment you're replying to is making the same point.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by simion314 on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:33PM (#23576832)
We also need to keep in mind that you can't get your toys and leave, your applications and media is locked into the store, you will have to start over, buy everything again, and before someone mentions "What about Xbox or Stream" those are bad too.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by thephyber on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:01PM (#23577789)
Apple iTunes has actually tried to mitigate this by supporting Movies Anywhere[1] for some video content and iTunes Plus[2] has no DRM, so they aren't as bad as some other walled gardens.

The app stores/systems on all of the walled gardens are problematic, but the way I see it it's largely because they don't want to create a web of trust including all of the other app stores (the weakest one's security would cause a loss of profit for all).

> What about X or Y

This behavior is largely a feature of the market and a failure of governments to choose to do anything about it. We are ~12 years into the iOS app ecosystem, and much further (~30 years) when it comes to packaged disk software/games which were sold separately for Apple/Windows/game consoles.

I'm more worried about the trajectory -- governments don't seem to identify this as a problem (except for a few select legislators) and other industries seem to be moving in this direction (John Deere DRM, Tesla apps, AWS Marketplace, etc).

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202915

[2] https://support.apple.com/guide/itunes/itunes-plus-itns1ec4e...

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:02PM (#23576422)
What do you mean?

I don't use Apple or Google products and I use technology every day.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by smt88 on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:08PM (#23576501)
You send emails to Google and Apple email servers at least.

You may also be recorded by Assistant or Siri when visiting friends or relatives, or even just when their phones are near you.

You likely hit Google's cloud every day when visiting websites on its platform.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:55PM (#23577066)
I didn't mean to say that I have had absolutely no interaction with any existing Apple or Google service or technology. I'm neither a fundamentalist nor a hermit.

Rather, whenever it is my choice, I prefer to select products and technologies that don't belong to Apple, Google or similar companies.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by smt88 on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:38PM (#23578129)
Sorry, I did a poor job of making my point.

@hkarthik implied that it's impossible to use technology and also boycott Apple and/or Google. I agree with them.

You seemed to disagree by saying that you do boycott Apple and Google.

The point I was trying to make is that you're part of their revenue stream even if you yourself don't have any consumer relationship with them. That's why they feel like a monopoly to so many of us and why we criticize them rather than leaving their ecosystem. We can't leave their ecosystem!

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:29PM (#23585156)
I can see your point now. Indeed they can feel inescapable.

One thing I try to do is to minimize how much revenue they get out of me. For example, I use uBlock Origin and uMatrix to block their ads and scripts, their cookies, Google Analytics, etcetera. I hope they are losing money on me, that'd make my day!

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by 13415 on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:14PM (#23576582)
What mobile phone and which operating system for it do you use, if I may ask?
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:18PM (#23576623)
I use a $20 LG feature phone. I don't know what OS it runs, but it's not Android.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by koheripbal on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:29PM (#23576797)
Ok, but then you've given up on an entire technology set. You haven't avoided Apple and Android, you've avoided the tech entirely.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:51PM (#23577019)
I have avoided commercial smartphone products entirely, yes, and very much on purpose.

I have not avoided technology in general, not by a long shot.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by freehunter on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:20PM (#23580670)
The statement wasn't "you avoided technology", it was "you avoided the technology".
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by buo on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:34PM (#23585187)
To be more clear: I have avoided the commercial use of smartphone technology as it exists today, because for me its drawbacks are unacceptable. So, I am not a user of that technology, but I do not oppose the basic principle of mobile, universal, cheap computing and communication.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by Recursing on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:04PM (#23576445)
Doesn't this website use firebase?
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by root_axis on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#23576471)
You're not a user in any meaningful way of every subcomponent of a product.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by itsamoreh on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:11PM (#23576543)
Maybe, but you're still indirectly supporting them.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by root_axis on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:21PM (#23576665)
How?
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by thephyber on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:05PM (#23577818)
In any free/freemium product/service, your attention is your primary currency (your wallet and your participation in the network effect are secondary). Marketing to HN viewers happens when a funded company announces hiring.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by root_axis on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:15PM (#23578461)
How does that translate into support for google?
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by thephyber on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:48PM (#23578729)
If you spend money or attention on a site that pays Google as a vendor, that is quite obviously indirect support of Google.

Perhaps we are just quibbling about which definition of the word "support"? In which case I agree that there is one definition of support in which you are right and another in which your parent is right.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by freehunter on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:19PM (#23580665)
That's about as much support for Google as if I bought a product from a storefront that's in a building owned by a landlord who supports a cause I don't agree with. First of all, I (as a consumer) would have no idea who owned that building, and secondly the link between my purchase and money flowing to that unsavory cause is so far removed that it's not even worth considering.

Go far enough down any business transaction and you'll find a cause you disagree with. If the tree you planted makes oxygen for your worst enemy, will you cut down the tree to spite them?

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by heavyset_go on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:30PM (#23585165)
> as if I bought a product from a storefront that's in a building owned by a landlord who supports a cause I don't agree with.

There are plenty of people who would look at this situation, and do whatever they can to make sure they don't enable that person.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by root_axis on Friday June 19, 2020 @05:54PM (#23579244)
My understanding is that Firebase is free. However, even if it wasn't I still think the link is tenuous to the point of meaningless. Spending attention on HN does not make google any richer, it stretches the definition of the word "support" in a way that misses the point within the context of boycotting a company. If every HN reader quit the site today only a Firebase SRE would take notice, if every HN reader quit using Gmail it'd cost google a considerable amount of money.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by heavyset_go on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:02PM (#23577794)
> I am being facetious, but mainly to illustrate the point that we now have a series of entrenched monopolies in the tech world so “stop using X” isn’t a realistic solution.

Even if you could simply stop using X, "voting with your wallet" is often a fallacy, especially when voting with your voice and actual vote have consistently enacted meaningful change throughout history.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by enriquto on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:56PM (#23576316)
On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem.

Moreover, for people who are not citizens of the USA (the large majority of the people!), there's no other clear course of action.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by FakeRemore on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:13PM (#23576563)
> On the other hand, for us "tech people" it is actually easier to stop using Google and Apple and serve as example for others. Pushing for anti-monopoly legislation needs not be the only thing that we do to solve that problem.

Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether?

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by enriquto on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:27PM (#23576758)
> Are you suggesting people stop using smartphones altogether?

I do not have a smartphone and my life is alright, but I was not suggesting that.

You can certainly have a smartphone that is not controlled by neither Google nor Apple. For example, by installing an OS like LineageOS, or even some "freer" stuff that is out there.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by thephyber on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:11PM (#23577885)
In a tech crowd like HN, I don't think that's a reasonable solution for most people.

App ecosystems have network effects. Do your {bank, 2FA vendor, paycheck vendor, retirement vendor, etc} all support apps for LineageOS?

Additionally, the number of tech jobs which support those smartphones, their apps, testing websites on smartphone browsers, and the related marketing all require many of us to participate in the core smartphone markets, even if we choose not to use them outside of work.

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by enriquto on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:56PM (#23578298)
If somebody is able to take these compromises it is certainly senior software engineers. And yes, you can install any android app on lineageos, even if it does not have google services enabled.

I have a lot of trouble to force my mom (nearly computer illiterate) to live without google and similar stuff. But I bully mercilessly my co-workers for that. At least they agreed to use jitsi instead of zoom, so that's something

Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by Brakenshire on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:24PM (#23576721)
There are services that operate on Android with open source implementations of the Google proprietary services which have been designed for lock-in. https://e.foundation packages up the work from Lineage and MicroG and sells phones with the software preinstalled.
Re:Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them by pathseeker on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:16PM (#23576603)
Depends on if you consider running a phone with Google services removed "supporting Google".