News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by kennywinker on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:46PM (#23558197)
I absolutely hate the term virtue signalling. It's always reductive and dismissive. If I am willing to go a LITTLE out of my way to protect my privacy, but not a LOT out of my way, am I "just virtue signalling"? If I continue to use a privacy-less platform (e.g. zoom/instagram/facebook) but just exercise caution with what I say using that medium, is that also "just virtue signalling"?

I agree, evidence shows most people are not willing to go very far out of their way to defend their privacy. But I also think privacy is a genuine virtue, and a desire for it is present and often untapped. Why else would Apple have run privacy-centric ad campaigns? Attempting to tap into the weak but widespread desire for privacy, I think

Also, side note, lgbtq people make up somewhere in the range of 2-7% of the population, not 1%.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by BolexNOLA on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:43AM (#23559856)
Man you really hit the nail on the head with this. I’ve never been able to articulate why the term bothers me so much and you just absolutely nailed it.

It’s like the derogatory “social justice warrior.” What? It’s bad to give a damn about people and advocate on their behalf? If having empathy means I’m “an SJW” then I’ll gladly wear that moniker.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by raxxorrax on Thursday June 18, 2020 @07:37AM (#23562084)
The social justice and warrior part once hinted at the oxymoron of enforcing solidarity with violence. It was never meant to be criticism of social justice. The dialogue that degraded just beyond nuance. The term is probably 10 years old at least. Today it probably means just left-leaning person for most people.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by imtringued on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:22AM (#23572307)
Social justice warrior is an oxymoron. It's a way to call someone a hypocrite because those who are called SJW usually exhibit behavior that is exactly the opposite of what they claim to stand against. e.g. fight discrimination by using discrimination in a different context

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by deathgrips on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:49PM (#23577006)
I measure virtue by how much you are willing to lose for the sake of your values or because you want to help other people. If you aren't willing to give up anything, you're not virtuous no matter what you say. Actions matter.

If you say you care about privacy but do nothing to protect your privacy, you don't really care about privacy in any way that matters. Since you mildly inconvenience yourself for the sake of privacy, I can conclude based on this very limited evidence that you mildly care about privacy, which is a whole lot more than most people care about it.

Apple markets itself as privacy conscious because that makes Apple look like a trustworthy company. That's a rare and beneficial appearance that a company can maintain to get more business.

Not all gay people care about their privacy. Plenty live in states where they feel more free to open up to their friends, family, and neighbors.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by cutemonster on Friday June 19, 2020 @07:00PM (#23579732)
Is, would you say, virtue signaling to say something others like but not actually do something inconvenient related to that oneself?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by deathgrips on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:10AM (#23649195)
Yes and more than that. It's virtue signaling to say you have some value when you have no evidence to back up that claim.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by Arbalest on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:58PM (#23558279)
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by rconti on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:25PM (#23558465)
100% agreed. It's almost exclusively used as an ad hominem by people who lack that particular virtue to dismiss people who espouse a caring viewpoint.

If you want to argue that your target does less to further that particular cause than you do, fine. If you want to argue the cause is misguided, fine.

But using the term is just lazy.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by senderista on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:17PM (#23559127)
It’s like “PC” or “fake news”, it was originally meaningful but got co-opted by people who use it in bad faith.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by cameronbrown on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:43PM (#23559284)
Just curious: Fake news was coined by Trump, so you're agreeing it was a meaningful usage?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by DyslexicAtheist on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:09AM (#23560890)
It was not coined by Donald Trump[1][2]:

> Author Sarah Churchwell asserts that it was Woodrow Wilson who popularized the phrase 'fake news' in 1915, although the phrase had been used in the US in the previous century.

> The term actually dates from the late 19th century, when it was used by newspapers and magazines to boast about their own journalistic standards and attack those of their rivals. In 1895, for example, Electricity: A Popular Electrical Journal bragged that “we never copy fake news,” while in 1896 a writer at one San Jose, California, paper excoriated the publisher of another: “It is his habit to indulge in fake news. ... [H]e will make up news when he fails to find it.”

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fake_news#20th_century

[2] https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2019/0726/Su...

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by bawolff on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:44AM (#23559864)
It was always dismissive. Serious people used already existing terms like propaganda or yellow journalism.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by stonogo on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:03PM (#23559387)
Ironically, it was not coined by Trump.

https://twitter.com/CraigSilverman/status/522179364767924224 and https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/22/7028983/fake-news-sites-... are good examples of its use pre-Trump. By the time Trump started applying it to actual news outlets, it was already in relatively common use.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by triangleman on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:11AM (#23559987)
The irony runs deep in this case. The examples you point out are good ones for the term in common use through the end of 2016. Then this happened:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/politics/hillary-clinton-fake...

December 2016 Hillary Clinton decides to use the term in reference to recent events like her losing the election. The media picks up on it and the term starts to lose its meaning. Then Donald Trump, always with a nose for catch phrase politics, picks up the term and runs with it, a turn of events that someone on HN called a huge "own goal" by the media, and I can't say I disagree with that assessment.

For more analysis of this cultural specimen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42724320

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by vxNsr on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:41AM (#23560746)
It's possible that the term existed before Hillary/Trump but your examples aren't it.

In your examples the word "fake" is used as an adjective to the noun "news site". As in "a fake news site".

"fake news" as it used today is a noun in its own right. As in "that's fake news"

See also "alternative facts".

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by P_I_Staker on Thursday June 18, 2020 @09:42AM (#23563012)
No, and it's total bullshit that we let him get away with re-claiming it. Originally, it was for stories that were ludicrously false and made up. It's like the stuff you see in tabloids. It was being passed around on social media as real news. Things like Obama being a secret Muslim, and not a natural born US citizen. You know the things that launched Trump's campaign.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by senderista on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:06PM (#23586798)
Wrong, it originally referred to fabricated political news stories (generally pro-Trump) circulated on social media during the 2016 presidential campaign. Trump later co-opted the term to mean any unfavorable news coverage.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday June 18, 2020 @09:13AM (#23562745)
I disagree. Metaphorically speaking, online discussion is full of literal butt-heads and having the term butt-head is valuable to have in the toolbox even if some people call everyone they don't agree with a butt-head because it's easy and they're lazy. I don't really care if we call them butt-heads or ass-hats as long as there's a more or less agreed upon word for it.

Virtue signaling or whatever you want to call that sort of in-group circle jerk is fundamentally unproductive and self-rewarding because it's just a reiteration of existing group beliefs that basically everyone already knows and has. There's no term you can use to describe that behavior that will not make people uncomfortable when you call it out because at the end of the day you're calling the behavior unproductive and selfish.

For example, someone goes on Reddit and asks "should I put economy tire A or economy tire B on my 20yo, $2k car, also I have $250 to spend". The most popular answers will be invariably be "you should have dedicated summer and winter tires" and "you should use jack stands when you change tires" and many duplicates thereof many of which will suggest that anyone who does not do these things is not someone of good character, deserves to rot in hell, is a burden upon society, etc, etc. Neither of these sideshows are productive discussion. Both of them serve purely to signal to the in-group that the signaler believes something the in-group already believes. Of course everybody wants the greatest tires and nobody wants a car on them but the former is not in the scope for budgetary reasons and the latter is not a concern when simply changing tires never-mind that installing tires usually adds no cost over having them put on rims. The people circle jerking it to jack stands and fancy tires are negatively affecting the discussion for anyone who cared about economy tires. Virtue signaling takes legitimate relevant content and displaces it with low quality junk. I'm more technical than I am cultured but I see this kind of behavior across multiple topics and I'm sure that any serious amateur film critic, book critic, etc. probably could come up with a similar example from their niche.

While that example is hypothetical you can see similar ones play out across a multitude of topics and I think this does legitimate damage to civil discourse. It's like how searching for a service manual for an appliance on the internet to yield results but now it yields a million sites that don't have what you're looking for but will try and sell you something. I see virtue signaling as having a similar quality degradation affect but on legitimate discussion. We can no-longer have detailed discussions about complex issues, regardless of subject because they all get derailed, bogged down and diluted by people showing up to signal their virtue on a higher level issue. Take for example the recent discussion about police. Many on the left and right have a litany of small points on which they agree. Any public discussion about common ground, like fewer MRAPs in the hands of suburban police departments, gets drowned out by riff raff showing up to tell the world which team they're on. At scale this is damaging to civil discourse.

In conclusion, I think that having a nice, short, two-word, pop culture word to describe that behavior is useful because makes it easier for those who may not be articulate enough to otherwise do a good job call it out when they see it. Of course some people are gonna abuse it but I think that's just the nature of it being a negative thing since all negative things become a name you can call someone or their actions.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by skinnymuch on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:21PM (#23558791)
That article gives such a bad argument that I feel I have now become more pro using the term than before. All of the arguments have huge exceptions or contradict each other.

Signaling being a term used by some niche fields. We have that happen all the time. It’s how language evolves.

The article says to use show off instead of virtue signaling. Right after the next argument is assuming the person is disingenuous. Which is exactly what you’re doing if you say they’re showing off. The two arguments can’t both be used. They are arguments against different things.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by DyslexicAtheist on Thursday June 18, 2020 @07:40AM (#23562102)
"To an asshole, all virtue looks like virtue signaling." -- https://twitter.com/drvox/status/1273472663621529604
[dead]
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by BolexNOLA on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:44AM (#23559862)
At some point we are just circling a drain of nonsense when we make points like that.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by dokem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:54PM (#23558650)
Attempting to remove a word or phrase is exactly the kind of impractical behavior I expect from a virtue signaler. And with the annoyingly pedantic reasoning about how it's not technically signaling they way economists use the term is just the cherry on top. Virtue signaling is real, so is the misuse of the term, like every other, but so what.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by kennywinker on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:36PM (#23558877)
This seems like pro-virtue-signalling-as-a-term virtue signalling. We get it, you want all the other people who use the term virtue signalling to like you.

ALWAYS dismissive and reductive. ALWAYS. It's not a good faith argument. If you think someone is all-talk-no-action, accuse them of being performative. If you think someone's cause is dumb, attack that. You can call ANYBODY advocating for a viewpoint a virtue signaller so it is an entirely meaningless attack.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by hombre_fatal on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:37AM (#23559835)
The problem is that the action condemned by the "virtue signaling" label is real, widespread, and destrucive. Always someone obnoxiously coming out of nowhere with some usually inconsequential moral high ground. I think where we will disagree is how destructive and common it is, and how much it needs to be called out. I personally think it's one of the worst traits of modern social media discourse.

Maybe some people are too quick with the term, there always will be people like that for any label. But just consider all the people just as tired of real conversation being shackled by "virtue signaling" as you are of being called a virtue signaler.

Also, you could write your disgruntled comments about any label. We are certainly way too quick to find racism where there isn't any. Yet there are also real racists out there complaining that the charge of racism is really getting on their nerves. Does that mean we stop charging people with racism when we see it? No, we're trying to call out unacceptable behavior.

If we're getting into pet peeves, mine is "gaslighting". Everything is "gaslighting" now. Accidentally spread a small inaccuracy? Gaslighting. Tell a public lie? You're now "gaslighting the world". Sharing my disagreement with you, like this comment? I'm gaslighting you.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by kennywinker on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:11PM (#23568084)
I guess my point is that the term "virtue signalling" is used to undermine someone's belief that something is an actual virtue.

If I say "don't be racist" and you call me a virtue signaller, you are implying that I don't actually care if you're racist, I just want social points for being "good". The problem is you don't know if I care or not. I might care deeply. I might dedicate my life to being anti-racist, but you can just label it virtue signalling and move on? that's an intellectually dishonest maneuver.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by suizi on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:47AM (#23571052)
Virtue signalling to me is to do something over the top with little practical utility, or which is even counter-productive, to show off one's apparent virtues.

It can be incomparably frustrating as it focuses on non-issues or minor issues and misses the bigger picture. I personally don't see it used outside of those contexts but it shouldn't be used to dismiss actual action like doing your part against climate change.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by ImprobableTruth on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:21PM (#23559149)
In what way is there a difference between virtue signaling and performative?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by kennywinker on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:18PM (#23568154)
The difference I'm hoping to draw out is that virtue signalling implies the person doesn't actually care, just wants to be seen as virtuous.

Buying CFL lightbulbs is performative climate action.

Buying CFL lightbulbs is virtue signalling climate action.

One of them is about the action - buying bulbs isn't effective, the other is about the person - if you buy bulbs you are fake. Perhaps "performative" fails at making this distinction clear enough, but I'd like a way to imply that someone is all-talk-no-action, without undermining their actual belief in something.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by dokem on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:46PM (#23558925)
The idea that you can't attack someone's behavior is ridiculous. If you want to consider what i'm doing virtue signaling then go right ahead I guess.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by jeromegv on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:32PM (#23564765)
Yes. You calling other people for virtue signalling is a form of virtue signalling in itself.

Don’t you realize how ridiculous and useless this argument is?

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by dokem on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:46PM (#23565594)
Don't you understand that I am arguing that virtue signaling is real. You saying I am virtue signaling is only agreeing with my point.