News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by crazygringo on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:51PM (#23553594)
Unfortunately, I have to post this comment again, from just 3 days ago [1]. Also remember that Eric Yuan is an American citizen, not a Chinese citizen. He switched. Original comment:

When will this meme die?

Zoom is NOT a Chinese company. It is incorporated in and headquartered in the US. Like any American company ever, it follows US laws in the US, and local laws in other companies where it operates. End of story.

Yes their culture certainly has stronger cultural internal ties to China, due to the number of Chinese employees, but what has that got to do with anything? At the end of the day, they're a public, profit-driven corporation trying to make lots of money across the entire world.

It's not like they're secretly and nefariously doing the CCP's bidding, which seems to be the veiled suggestion people keep making.

Seriously, every time someone brings up that Zoom is "really" a Chinese company, it comes across as borderline racism or conspiracy-mongering or both. And while I'd usually never comment on someone using a throwaway account, in this case when you're pushing these kinds of shady "stronger than the more-commonly-discussed" insituations, I think using a throwaway here is representative of exactly the kind of astroturfing that spreads malicious rumors without evidence.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23510886

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by tw04 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:55PM (#23553675)
Really? And which part of "local law" required Zoom to close accounts of US citizens in the US who weren't breaking any US Laws?

https://news.sky.com/story/zoom-disables-accounts-of-chinese...

>The suspension targeted Humanitarian China, an organisation based in the US, after it held a call with roughly 250 people, including a number who dialled in from China.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by damanamathos on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:15PM (#23553927)
Zoom claimed they had to remove Chinese participants from the US-hosted meeting but didn't have the functionality to do that so (wrongly) banned the US hosts.

They said it was wrong to do, reinstated those accounts, and are building the functionality to enforce those Chinese laws without ever impacting users outside China.

That's from their blog. https://blog.zoom.us/wordpress/2020/06/11/improving-our-poli...

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by tw04 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:25PM (#23554069)
I'll ignore for a second the fact they refused to even acknowledge Tiananmen Square in that post, despite the fact that as was pointed out they're a US company that isn't beholden to China and they're posting in English on their US-based website.

They are actually admitting that they're going to prevent people IN CHINA from connecting to a meeting that is presumably hosted IN THE US. That doesn't make it better, it makes it WORSE. You're basically telling the world that China will dictate how you operate WOLRDWIDE not just in China.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by 6AA4FD on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:12PM (#23557436)
I'm sure that if the US had as strict control over our/their internet as China does over theirs, non-US sites would be forced to operate differently for peers in the US too.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by brenschluss on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:00PM (#23553739)
Same reason why Google censored itself for China in 2006. Did people think Google was a 'Chinese company'? Note that this was before Google set up a presence in China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4645596.stm

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by SahAssar on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:11PM (#23553873)
I think you're missing the point. Google censored itself in china based on Chinese requests. Zoom censored itself in the US based on Chinese requests.

There's a pretty big difference IMO.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by mapcars on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:10PM (#23553864)
I don't see how it's the same. In Zoom's case organization was in US and call organization was in US and company works by US laws. Why would they censor these accounts? Google on the other hand had to do it to operate in China, had to submit to Chinese regulations.

The same would be if they blocked Gmail of US citizens because of discussions related to China.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by tw04 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:44PM (#23554315)
I guess I don't consider that the same thing at all. They're censoring searches coming from china to google.cn (hosted in China). They didn't really have a choice, the servers are in China, the users are in China.

What they aren't doing is actively blocking users from China getting to www.google.com, and they aren't censoring searches Chinese users do on www.google.com because those resources aren't hosted in China and aren't subject to Chinese law.

Zoom on the other hand IS blocking users from China accessing resources in the US and while they may have "undone" the ban, they banned US users from their platform for breaking a Chinese law that they aren't subject to. Namely talking about the Tienanmen Square massacre.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by g-b-r on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:23PM (#23556952)
they didn't have a choice not to use servers in China?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by tw04 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:55PM (#23565046)
They actually didn't. Their options were filtered servers in China or no services in China at all. We can collectively be upset at their decision but they ARE beholden to their shareholders as a public company. Abandoning the Chinese market entirely is something they could've tried, but their major shareholders made it pretty clear there would be a change of leadership if they tried.

Unless you've got a magic bullet to give Wall Street a conscience, that wasn't going to happen.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by g-b-r on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:26PM (#23566048)
Ok it was the fault of their major shareholders, but then it's ok to make them pay their decision, I think (hoping that they're still holding those shares).

By the way, in general my understanding is that the "beholden to their shareholders as a public company" (and thus forced to make the most remunerative decisions) belief is a myth, a public company is free to make ethical choices (if its major shareholders don't oppose them).

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by Aunche on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:20PM (#23553989)
They're the same "local laws" that fine foreign companies billions of dollars for doing business in Iran.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by thoraway1010 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:56PM (#23553679)
Let's be 100% clear.

Based on a complaint from china regarding non-Chinese citizens with non-china accounts, zoom cancelled the non-china accounts.

Full stop. Let that sink in.

If you are wondering who zoom will accommodate you have your answer. This is a fact. This is what we are calling "racism"?

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by xwowsersx on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:54PM (#23553641)
How is it racist to suggest that Zoom has Chinese influences (seemingly not farfetched based on the equity ownership mentioned above and not at all disputed based on the technicality of Zoom being a US company)?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by maxmcd on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:58PM (#23553716)
It is not racist to suggest that the Chinese government influences companies. It is racist to suggest that Chinese people are automatically predispositioned to certain actions.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by xwowsersx on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:07PM (#23553825)
Fair enough and I don't think anyone here will find that statement controversial. I think what bothers me in some of the dialogue here is what I perceive as an attempt to play "hide the ball" by pretending that CCP interests don't run counter to the interests of liberal democracies by labeling raised concerns as racist. No one framed anything in racial terms to begin with so I don't see why it needs to be placed in that context.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by laughinghan on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:32PM (#23557041)
Did you read the comment he's replying to? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553503

It's entire contents is an argument that Zoom is evil because Eric Yuan is Chinese-American. It doesn't say a single one of the things you're saying.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by g-b-r on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:26PM (#23556980)
It's racist to suggest that Chinese people (NOT the similarly-colored Taiwanese) feel some weight from the dictatorship were they live/grew up/have parents in?
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by 0xy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:25PM (#23558464)
That was never suggested. Zoom is developed almost entirely in China, which means it is effectively a Chinese company under full influence of the CCP.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by shaan1 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @03:53PM (#23555947)
Dude, you need to think first. Handing over data to CCP ? thats genocide.
Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by maxmcd on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:56PM (#23553680)
Defending something as "NOT a Chinese company" or not a Chinese citizen (as if those would allow certain assumptions about the actions of individuals) is still xenophobic framing. People are people and are capable of independent thought and actions.

We can be upset at power structures and at their effects. Taking that further to make assumptions about groups of people is racist.

Re:Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, includi... by g-b-r on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:36PM (#23557063)
"Chinese" are not a race, and assuming that groups of people are somewhat more likely to be subject to some power structure, is not racism or xenophobia.

You'll get a Liu Xiaobo once in a while, but much more often you'll have people that, while easily wonderful as people per se, are disgracefully forced, or have been convinced to, do some things that they shouldn't do.