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Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by Tainnor on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:57PM (#23492749)
Totally a tangent, but: the law of the excluded middle ("tertium non datur") doesn't state that "a and not a" is always invalid, it states that "a or not a" is always valid. This is a somewhat important distinction since there are logic systems (intuitionism) where "a or not a" is not a tautology, yet I don't know of any logic that accepts "a and not a".
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by mehrdadn on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:19PM (#23494647)
I'm confused. Or maybe you're confusing AND with OR? How can "A and not A" ever be true, let alone tautologically so? Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by Tainnor on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:25AM (#23498512)
I didn't claim that it could be true, as I did in fact state that I know of no logic that accepts "A or not A". The argument was solely about what the law of the excluded middle is. IOW, law of the excluded middle != law of noncontradiction. Classical logic accepts both of these laws, intuitionism only the second.

edit: looking at Wikipedia does seem to indicate that there might be systems of logic where "A and not A" might not be valid (paraconsistent logic), but I haven't really looked into that, and I don't know how much such systems are used.

Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by c3534l on Friday June 12, 2020 @12:25AM (#23496003)
[this was misleading]
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by mehrdadn on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:26AM (#23496319)
Are you sure you're not confusing AND and OR? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_logic#Relation_...

Literally copying from Wikipedia: The system of classical logic is obtained by adding any one of the following axioms: ϕ ∨ ¬ϕ (Law of the excluded middle), ...

where ∨ means OR, not AND... right?

Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by c3534l on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:54AM (#23496439)
Yes. In classical logic, p OR !p is always true. You have to add these axioms to get classical logic. Intuitionistic logic doesn't have that. p OR !p is not necessarily true in intuitionistic logic.
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by mehrdadn on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:59AM (#23496463)
> A and not A are not necessarily contradictions

Nobody was saying p OR !p is necessarily true. The argument was about p AND !p. It really seems to me like you're confusing AND and OR...

The intuitionist will accept that "A and not A" cannot be true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism#Truth_and_proof

Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by dfischer on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:09PM (#23495628)
Quantum states can be A and not A.

Unknown questions are A and not A.

There’s interesting alternative logic systems that try to tackle this.

We get into interesting territory when using English and then “is” as a statement. Most English is assumed to have a certain value because of to be.

English is almost inherently flawed with logic bugs and assumptions.

E-Prime may help with this.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catu%E1%B9%A3ko%E1%B9%ADi

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaina_seven-valued_logic

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite-valued_logic

Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by mehrdadn on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:16PM (#23495665)
Okay but I still don't see how the law of the excluded middle says that "a and not a" is always valid.
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by dash2 on Friday June 12, 2020 @05:43AM (#23497589)
Grandparent said that the law doesn't say that "a and not a" is always INvalid. (The law also doesn't say that "a and not a" is sometimes valid. It makes no comment at all, but only claims that "a or not a" is always valid. According to the grandparent. Now I need to lie down for a bit....)
Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by Tainnor on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:22AM (#23498494)
Yes, this.

The point was that you can reject the law of the excluded middle without getting into the absurdity that would result from accepting "a and not a".

Re:MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations by mehrdadn on Friday June 12, 2020 @12:50PM (#23501096)
Ahh! Now I see I misread your comment, I see what you were trying to say now.