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Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:18PM (#23467941)
I feel like your technology should be simply a set of tools that assist you.

If you’re a “bad” person, logically your technology should help you be bad.

And if you’re good, the same.

But never would I want my technology to inform me what is good or bad, or permit me one path over the other. That is my decision as the human in the relationship.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:36PM (#23468115)
Technology is never neutral. It always reflects the biases of its creators, and of the social environment in which it's developed. Those biases may directly contradict the goals you expressed. For example, if self-driving car technology has racist biases, a "good" person may still end up on the inside of a car that chooses an escape route with a pedestrian of color in its path over an escape route which has no pedestrians.

Neutrality is a myth. Actively promoting values and challenging biases is preferable. You don't have to agree with the values promoted, and you're welcome to choose not to use the technology.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:42PM (#23468183)
Your Siri unit should not be altering your commands.

It is that simple.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:44PM (#23468202)
It does all the time. It has since before it was acquired by Apple.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:47PM (#23468233)
This is a deliberate blacklisting of a command based on a political agenda.

Technology is built in service to mankind.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:51PM (#23468276)
"Black lives matter" is not a political agenda, it is explicitly a service to mankind.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by Amezarak on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:11PM (#23468504)
This is a fantastic demonstration of what Zizek means when he talks about modern ideology.

> For subjects to believe in an ideology, it must have been presented to them, and been accepted, as non-ideological indeed, as True and Right, and what anyone sensible would believe. As we shall see in 2e, Žižek is alert to the realist insight that there is no more effective political gesture than to declare some contestable matter above political contestation. Just as the third way is said to be post-ideological or national security is claimed to be extra-political, so Žižek argues that ideologies are always presented by their proponents as being discourses about Things too sacred to profane by politics. Hence, Žižek’s bold opening in The Sublime Object of Ideology is to claim that today ideology has not so much disappeared from the political landscape as come into its own. It is exactly because of this success, Žižek argues, that ideology has also been able to be dismissed in accepted political and theoretical opinion.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/zizek/#Ha

I think it's actually fairly concerning that the fault lines between ideologies seems to be deepening - people seemed more and more convinced that their positions are absolutely not even contestable. I'm not sure where there is room for civil political discourse and positive change in this kind of scenario.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @02:06PM (#23469085)
Yep - exactly right, I shouldn’t have responded to it - I knew it was coming from the top level post.

That thought process is absolutely poisonous for technology - it’s like a viral brain-lock.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:57PM (#23468345)
Machines should not alter user input.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:11PM (#23468508)
That's literally the definition of machines.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by armatav on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:57PM (#23469010)
Maybe when you code.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @02:12PM (#23469133)
It is the mechanical definition of a machine. A machine inherently alters the action performed by the human operating it.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by mc32 on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:44PM (#23468205)
Do you agree with the Clinton admin restrictions against exporting strong encryption? You support NSA backdoors so we can catch the bad guys too?

I mean tech is never neutral right?

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:52PM (#23468290)
Huh? I explicitly stated that neutrality is a myth, why would you assume that I'm neutral on which values are promoted? No, I do not support either of those.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by mc32 on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:22PM (#23468637)
Right, so you would be for our ability to break encryption the foreign baddies might use? You never know what baddie might want to use strong encryption...
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:37PM (#23468806)
I have NO IDEA how you got that from anything I said.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by mc32 on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:24PM (#23467994)
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised that one day you search for 3D printing something “bad” (as defined by someone) gets you redirected to advocacy groups against something.

Search for abortion resources, search for 3D printing a firearm, search for pirated movies, search for being anonymous in a protest... all get redirected to the right way to think of things.

The FBI should just go ahead and ask them for the good of the people to redirect all terms they categorize as terroristic in nature to their anti radicalization resources...

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by knolax on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:28PM (#23468038)
That already happens with google and topics such as self harm or racism. Googling "I hate X" is going to turn up multiple results like "History of Discrimination Against X" and no articles that actually express hatred for X.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by wadkar on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:37PM (#23468122)
It makes doing research using the search giant mostly useless.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by vertex-four on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:43PM (#23468191)
That's because nobody says "I hate X" because they would, rightfully, be ignored. It's not a useful statement to try and publish and get to the top of Google. I just tried a few dogwhistle phrases and it's not hard to find people legitimately espousing these views.

Also: you can very easily find hate groups and where they hang out on the internet through Google. You'll also, correctly, find adequate warning that these groups are probably not places you want to be.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by at_a_remove on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:49PM (#23468252)
Weird. Hit Google and try "I hate men." Plenty of hits, from people expressing those views.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by Ntrails on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:58PM (#23468354)
Huh, weird. Resuming patrol.
[dead]
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by dang on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @07:28PM (#23483398)
Please don't take HN threads further into race flamewar. Nothing good or new ever comes of this on the internet.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by at_a_remove on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:18AM (#23473870)
Because I am not about to be indoctrinated with relentless self-loathing on the basis of my skin color or sex, but most especially for past actions of other people over whom I had no control.

To blame white men for the crimes of past white men, well, imagine if history worked like that everywhere. You could do the same with just about any particular group -- they've all exterminated or maltreated someone. And yet you have this focus on just the Caucasian ones (even ones with no history of colonialism in their regional past) ... who taught you to fixate on this? And whom does it benefit?

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by jpd- on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @07:06PM (#23471951)
For the same reason other groups complain when sweeping generalizations are made about them.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by gremlinsinc on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @12:53AM (#23474058)
This one is kind of warranted. What color was Hitler? How many did columbus murder? Napoleon? Mussolini?

How many have police murdered?

How many times did blacks bomb an entire city of wealthy white people in America and get away w/ it? Okay what about the opposite? 0:1.

Until we RIGHT the course, we ARE part of the problem.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by at_a_remove on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:03AM (#23474115)
Look up the Ruwandan Uprising: what color were they? Barbary Slave Trade: what color were they? Khmer Rouge: what color were they? People massacre one another at the drop of a hat, just learn some history.

You have been taught to only fixate on the crimes of Caucasians and to ignore all others.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by gremlinsinc on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:15AM (#23474183)
I'm pretty sure the Ruwandan Uprising were different tribes of black people, so how does a internal conflict among people of the same race even weigh in to the conversation?

That'd be more like the war w/ North and South Korea...

I'm just fixating on the crimes of police, I could care less about other caucasians, I'm worried about police. Even blacks are more likely to kill blacks if they're wearing the blue uniform because of their indoctrination. The blue brotherhood becomes everything. What happens if a political ideology you don't agree w/ decides they want to be the police so they start getting jobs and become the police, maybe they start doing to white people what cops are doing to black people.

What would you do if whites were treated 100% equal to blacks by police but not in a good way, still they sit on your neck, they just stop caring whether you're black or white. Get pulled over for speeding get out, and have a 50% chance of survival?

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by at_a_remove on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:28AM (#23474254)
Nah, you were talking about Hitler and stuff, now you switched topics because I pointed out a problem with your argument. If I point out crimes of police in other countries where whites are not the majority, you will just switch again.

You've fixated on white people, white men, as being evil. That's your fixation, not the crimes of police.

I will leave you to it.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by gremlinsinc on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @01:35AM (#23474294)
I'm white. I'm not evil. I wouldn't characterize Bernie Sanders as evil either. Skin color has no bearing on evil. However supporting EVIL members of your skin color and not calling them out, that is evil. If you believe that a cop who knows another cop who has used these tactics, and didn't report them is still a 'good guy' then you're probably higher up on that evil scale. Because you think it's okay. It's not all black/white either, it's a scale obviously. Some people are just blind that this goes on every single day.

I mean it's NOT just happening to blacks now, hell if you just SUPPORT or STAND UP for blacks they treat you like you are one...see that old man in Buffalo w/ his head bashed in by cops.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by pjc50 on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:25PM (#23468002)
> If you’re a “bad” person, logically your technology should help you be bad

The key word here is not "bad" but "your". Whose technology is Siri?

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by young_unixer on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:37PM (#23468127)
In this context, the phone owner's.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by koala_man on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:57PM (#23468338)
>If you’re a “bad” person, logically your technology should help you be bad.

I think this oversteps the Silicon Valley idea that technology is always inherently beneficial.

It's really not unfair that I can buy gardening gloves and radish seeds on Amazon, while a domestic terrorist has to sneak around and lie to buy a barrel of nitromethane. We should not be using our technology to enable both equally, and then leave it to the individual to decide whether to plant a garden or a bomb.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by uniqueid on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:45PM (#23468882)
Just help anybody! Have no ethics! There's an awful lot of ink that's been spilt over amoral companies. People truly learn sweet FA from history.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by eyelidlessness on Wednesday June 10, 2020 @11:47AM (#23478413)
This is an example of my previous response on the matter: https://twitter.com/nycantifa/status/1270742009813352449?s=2...
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:39PM (#23468155)
> If you’re a “bad” person, logically your technology should help you be bad.

> And if you’re good, the same.

That is almost tautologically the case of how technology works, but Siri isn’t your technology (where you = the end user), it is Apple’s.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by q3k on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:27PM (#23468034)
> If you’re a “bad” person, logically your technology should help you be bad.

With apologies to Godwin, but IBM and the Holocaust [1] will always be relevant in these discussions.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by pjkundert on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @02:50PM (#23469480)
The social elites proudly flaunted their swastika jewelry in the late 30s. The business elites supported Nazis widely.

What thugs are the social, political and business elites supporting today?

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by malandrew on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:03PM (#23468415)
A straw man to your straw man would suggest that Apple shouldn't even sell technology to such people or should at least just brick the phone of anyone responsible for thoughtcrime.

There's a world of difference between exploring the world of information and genocide.

When entities like Apple start doing things like this is it pouring gasoline on conspiracy theory fires, and one can argue makes things worse.

It's also a classic case of the Streisand Effect.

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by starpilot on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:34PM (#23468099)
I think they should definitely choose what should go viral though. You can Google ALM to your heart's content on an iPhone, they just don't facilitate it through the lower-resistance modes of querying.
Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by malandrew on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:41PM (#23468169)
Imagine google coming of age at different times in American history. It's merely a coincidence that what google is preferring aligns with your sensibilities.

What if google were making these editorial decisions during WWII? Would you be redirected away from things supportive Japanese Americans that were place in internment camps?

How about during the red scare? Would you be directed to Hollywood blacklists?

How about during the civil rights era? Would you be directed to content arguing in favor of segregation?

Contrary to popular liberal belief, the Black community in America is not a borg with one hive mind. There's a lot of diversity of thought within that community and people that dissent from the very narrow viewpoint that many gatekeepers who lean left are promoting. There's a lot more thoughtfulness and nuance in discussion than promoting one-sided activism would suggest. In fact, this active filtering robs that community (and other communities that are filtered) of their agency.

Here's a list of people from the black community with dissenting opinions that I can name quickly off the top of my head and I'm sure there are many many more:

Shelby Steele, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Thomas Sowell, Coleman Hughes, Kmele Foster, Roland G. Fryer Jr. Anthony Mackey, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, Larry Sharpe, Pastor Corey Brooks, Eric July

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by pjkundert on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#23469660)
It astonishes me how greedily people embrace extinguishing the liberties of others (and externalizing their costs to them), while they feel their echo-chamber forms the majority.

It’s almost like they can’t imagine a scenario where they are the minority, and might wish to pursue their own beliefs in peace...

Especially shameful here on HN, which claims to be an especially intellectually open-minded community!

For shame, that you present an accurate, supported analysis of risks that doesn’t support the current dogma! ;)

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by malandrew on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @04:12PM (#23470362)
What's crazy is that for most of HN's history ending about 3-4 years ago, both of our comments would have been met with upvotes. I wish I had access to the information dang does to see the average age of accounts downvoting comments such as ours.

The last few years definitely have had a feeling of eternal september and of all the eternal septembers I've experienced in my 26 years on the Internet, this is by far the worst and most toxic to open, thoughtful and nuanced discussion.

My general observation is that those that best recognize the importance of such liberties also possess the greatest faculties in abstraction (a fundamental skill for success in engineering, especially software engineering). For it is only through abstraction that someone is able to back out from the concrete issue at hand and see generalizable principles and how they might apply to other issues under other circumstances.

My suspicion is that as HN and tech in general has caught the attention of a broader audience, that the median capacity to abstract has dropped and a plurality lacks the comparable capacity to reason abstractly as once existed on HN.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/September-that-never-...

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by pjkundert on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @04:52PM (#23470779)
There’s a solution: k-means clustering.

This would aggregate people for whom downvote means “I don’t agree”, and separately those whose downvote means “that’s an inflammatory/ unsupported/ insane position”.

Soon, those open to reasoned debate would see comments by others known for reasoned debate — regardless of their political/ideological stripe.

The trolls would be relegated each to their own echo-chamber.

Everybody wins!

Re:Saying “All Lives Matter” to Siri Now Redirects You to Bl... by malandrew on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @05:46PM (#23471286)
You should share this with dang as an optional feature that can be enabled like "showdead"