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Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by simonebrunozzi on Monday June 08, 2020 @07:37PM (#23462006)
There is a chance that some people with a history worth sharing might not be, and never be, in a position to talk.

I personally think that non-compete agreements are a strange beast. On one side, you want to avoid people "switching sides" and bring important secrets with them, possibly the reason why they've been hired by a competitor.

On the other side, you want a competitive job market, so that people would get the salary they deserve and the position they deserve.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by twblalock on Monday June 08, 2020 @11:29PM (#23463386)
> On one side, you want to avoid people "switching sides" and bring important secrets with them, possibly the reason why they've been hired by a competitor.

Noncompetes are only about preventing talent from working for the competition. They aren't really about protecting secrets, because those are already protected. There are laws against stealing trade secrets, and NDAs in addition to those laws.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by alkibiades on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @02:45AM (#23464323)
see: anthony lewandowski
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by myalphabet on Monday June 08, 2020 @07:42PM (#23462040)
Agreed. I'm generally uncomfortable with noncompetes and especially with Amazon's practice of making every employee sign one. Unless it's a really special case where a team is working on something truly groundbreaking and secret, I don't see what Amazon is really afraid of if some random developer leaves and goes to a competitor.

However, I do have to say that their argument as stated in this article does seem like a valid case for a noncompete. From the article:

>“Virtually every day, Hall worked with Amazon’s most senior cloud executives to create and execute those plans. As a result, he was entrusted with an unusually broad view into Amazon’s cloud product plans; its priorities; and its competitive strategy.”

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by 16bytes on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:46PM (#23462441)
I'd be OK with non-competes if the departing company had to pay 150% of salary during the non-compete duration if they elected to invoke the non-compete.

In contract law, this is known as "consideration". California has decided that "sign this or you won't get hired", isn't a valid form of consideration because it inhibits future earning potential, it's not (normally) mutually negotiated, nor is it negotiated on equal terms.

If companies really want it, they should pay for it.

Alternatively, if Amazon wanted to protect its market strategy, it should have made sure there was no ambiguity in this term. For example, if they had a narrow non-compete that says, you can't do cloud marketing or marketing strategy for Microsoft, IBM, or Google, it would hold much more standing because it's not overly broad.

As its written, where could he have gone and known for sure that that business wasn't a competitor? You can argue nearly every business is a competitor of Amazon. That's what makes it invalid.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by anarazel on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:18PM (#23462277)
I think cases like this can largely be dealt with by allowing non-competes, but only as long compensation continues. Without that the power imbalances are just too extreme.

EDIT: rephrased to make clear I wasn't just referring to base salary.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by tonfa on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:36PM (#23462385)
A large part of compensation is probably not in base salary, that'd be asking for like a 50% compensation cut.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by MertsA on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @08:13AM (#23465897)
Even just base salary, if that's not something they'll stop paying the second you land a job somewhere else that could be completely reasonable. That'd be an extra 50% on top of whatever other job just to avoid direct competitors for the next year or so. I'd take that deal, and not just because an offer was contingent on it.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by skinnymuch on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:49PM (#23462458)
I was assuming the person meant what you take home. Not just base salary.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by anarazel on Monday June 08, 2020 @09:06PM (#23462562)
Correct. Edited comment to clarify.

I think there's some possibly quibbling around the edges around what exact would be included, or not. E.g. a rule that bonus / commissions don't have to be included, as long as that doesn't lead to < 75% of previous year's comp would still be ok with me.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by perl4ever on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:16AM (#23463584)
>I don't see what Amazon is really afraid of if some random developer leaves and goes to a competitor

I don't see what's not to see. Preventing someone from going to a competitor is generally not so much the goal as the means of discouraging someone from leaving at all.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by tempodox on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:50PM (#23462470)
If that stuff is so important and unique, why don't they just patent it? Didn't they get a one-click purchase button patented?
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by ciarannolan on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:53PM (#23462480)
Because you can't patent "product plans, priorities, and competitive strategy", yet it is still extremely valuable.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by pyuser583 on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:29AM (#23463656)
If you’re working on something truely secret, you don’t need a non-compete. Corporate secrets are a thing.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by brandmeyer on Monday June 08, 2020 @09:15PM (#23462607)
Sales and Marketing non-competes aren't about taking company secrets with them, so much as they are about taking business relationships with them.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by MisterBastahrd on Monday June 08, 2020 @09:37PM (#23462747)
Yup. When I was a recruiter, everyone was fully aware that the second we told our bosses we were taking another position was the second we would be asked to say our goodbyes and leave the premises. They definitely did not want us touching any system that contained details of clients or consultants.

17 years later, I've since been back to that office several times to visit friends without objection.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by devmunchies on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:32AM (#23463670)
I get that sales would have lots of relationships with customers, but why marketing? Doesn’t marketing’s relationship end once the lead becomes a customer? Are marketing executives an exception?
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by QuinnyPig on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:55PM (#23462494)
Something to point out here: the guy Brian reported to is based in California, where non-competes are held to be unenforceable.

If non-competes are truly as strategically necessary as Amazon says they are, why on earth would they hire such a senior executive in a jurisdiction that wouldn't uphold them?

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by bsder on Monday June 08, 2020 @10:31PM (#23463048)
> non-competes are held to be unenforceable

They're not completely unenforceable in California. And the company can make your life miserable by suing you because you have to hire and pay the lawyer to win the case.

However, you generally have to be someone at this guy's level before non-competes can even have a chance of being enforceable. And there are lots of weird restrictions--you have to have access to data that would be damaging to the business, the lockout time needs to be relatively short, probably has to be in your contract before signing, etc.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by csunbird on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:06AM (#23464429)
> And the company can make your life miserable by suing you because you have to hire and pay the lawyer to win the case.

This is the part that I can not understand about United States. How is this even allowed? It is literally bullying someone to submit, even if what you do is illegal.

One of the main reasons I choose to immigrate to EU instead of US

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by projektfu on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @08:18AM (#23465953)
There are some restraints on the ability for someone to sue you just to give you a headache, such as dismissing a case with prejudice or anti-SLAPP laws.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by bsder on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:20AM (#23464499)
The EU has it's own systemic issues. However, they are different because it is mostly based on a Napoleonic Law basis rather than Common Law basis.

The problem in the US is that judges don't throw around the "this was pretty obviously frivolous and you lost so you have to pay for the court costs" card anywhere nearly enough.

Another problem is that the lawyer doesn't share in the penalty even when it gets applied.

A final problem is that the lawyers and judge are all buddies and see each other for lots of cases, so they're unwilling to actually slap each other when one of them is being stupid.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by csunbird on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:39AM (#23464599)
I feel like it comes back down to the ethics. A lawyer should not accept the case, because they should know the case is not valid, but they do it regardless. If there was a repercussion for accepting too many invalid cases or suing people for not legal grounds, they would stop doing that.

But, that is not going to happen obviously.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by auggierose on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @07:50AM (#23465770)
I don't know, as long as lawyers are allowed to defend murderers, you cannot really argue why they wouldn't be allowed to defend companies in such a case.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by csunbird on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @09:53AM (#23466652)
There is a big difference between defending a basic human right (e.g. a murderers right to be judged fairly) and a company explicitly putting illegal clauses in a contract to bully their current and past employees. An ethical lawyer would (and should) pick up the first case, and advise the company to remove that clause in the second case, because its illegal and not enforceable, with its only purpose is to bully people.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by eloisant on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @08:34AM (#23466051)
There is a difference between defending someone who is indicted (the lawsuit is going to happen no matter what, and the defendant has a right to a lawyer), and initiating a lawsuit.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by m0zg on Monday June 08, 2020 @07:41PM (#23462034)
> bring important secrets with them

BS. That's what NDAs are for.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by myalphabet on Monday June 08, 2020 @07:45PM (#23462061)
An NDA is practically unenforceable in this situation, which is the entire point a noncompete is a thing. Who is going to snitch on them for revealing AWS secrets to Google and violating the NDA? Another Google exec?
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by em-bee on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:07PM (#23462220)
don't need a snitch. they can just assume that it happens and sue anyways. the difficult part is coming up with proof that it actually happened
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by Judgmentality on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:30PM (#23462347)
So you think it's a good idea to take legal action against someone with no proof and hope it just materializes over time?

I mean, I can sue you for stealing US nuclear secrets. Now if only I had some evidence...

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by thaumasiotes on Monday June 08, 2020 @10:13PM (#23462964)
> I mean, I can sue you for stealing US nuclear secrets. Now if only I had some evidence...

#1 - No you can't, because only government officials can prosecute "crimes", as opposed to civil causes of action. (I think this distinction is stupid; it is not part of anyone's view of the world and it doesn't have any useful effects. But it will definitely stop you from prosecuting someone for espionage.)

#2 - No, you can't, because you don't suffer any injury if em-bee steals US nuclear secrets.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by Supermancho on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @12:07AM (#23463538)
> So you think it's a good idea to take legal action against someone with no proof and hope it just materializes over time?

Fishing expeditions are common and sometimes...legendary cough SCO-Linux dispute

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by em-bee on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:30AM (#23463927)
i am not saying that doing that is always a good idea, but we are talking about amazon vs google, to competitors who have more resources than sense, so yes, absolutely.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by skinnymuch on Monday June 08, 2020 @08:50PM (#23462468)
They aren’t suing someone random. Google would surely back the legal fees for the person if Google themselves aren’t somehow sued. What would be the point of this then?
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by em-bee on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:42AM (#23464008)
of course not random, but the person switching jobs.

clearly (from amazon's perspective) you can't switch to google without revealing secrets and violating your NDA, therefore we sue you.

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by m0zg on Monday June 08, 2020 @09:20PM (#23462639)
> An NDA is practically unenforceable in this situation

As we shall see, the non-compete is also unenforceable in this situation, it just costs more to show that it's not. Non-competes are for the "small" people.

The bigger question is, why are you carrying water for them? Enforceability of this BS is not in your interest unless you're a major shareholder, and even then non-competes are ethically dubious at best. If what's in his head is so valuable (which I'm almost certain it's not), Amazon should offer to pay him his previous comp for the duration of his non-compete, at the very least, so that he sits it out for a year. What are his options? To not ever work anywhere else again? To radically switch careers upon departure?

Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by adrr on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @03:04AM (#23464417)
Trade secrets law is the stick that keeps people from sharing former company secrets. People don't want to go to jail or have a felony on their record.
Re:Amazon sues former AWS marketing VP Brian Hall after he t... by thaumasiotes on Monday June 08, 2020 @10:08PM (#23462935)
> I personally think that non-compete agreements are a strange beast. On one side...

> On the other side...

Is there any single party interested in both of these goals?